First off let me just say I love the idea of the new RowThree music, book et al. site. It not only gives the readers a place seperate to talk about things OTHER than film but it will also allow more posts about those other subjects as well. More posts = more glorious discussion. Of course movies are what I will continue to visit the site to talk about but now we know we have another reason to visit too!

Secondly just wanna’ express my unbearable excitement about it only being a couple of weeks (almost!) until season 5 of Lost! Season 4 left us with yet aNOTHER jaw-dropping finale twist. How, why, what….WHEN? So many questions left to explore and I can’t wait.

Btw, just to kind of put my stamp on it (and forgive me if this has been said ANYWHERE else, I promise I came up with it all on my own) – my theory is that Locke found out that if someone’s body, once they’re dead, is brough onto the island they will regenerate. That’s why Jack’s father was alive on the island…remember he was dead in the coffin and Jack discovered the coffin broken open and then we saw him in season 4 in the cabin? The price for bringing him back to life is he’s to “serve” the island. And I think Locke trusts in the island so much he left, went round all the Oceanic 6 to convince them to come back and killed himself putting trust in the fact that he’ll come back to life when brought back onto the island by the 6. And I think in either season 5 (in the season finale?) or in season 6 he will come back to life.

Le’ts wait and see if that theory pans out as I expect it will (give or take minor details).

Roll on January 21st!

the wait is about over… my favorite distraction cometh…

Nothing seems to be easier than seeing someone whom you can help but not helping.
I suggest we start giving it a try. Give love to the ones that need it.
God will appreciate it.

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Ok I think that was the most disappointing two hours of Lost I have seen, there was overload and bad acting, and merely going through the actions. That said, there was a lot of reveals although I doubt I can figure out alone what they all meant.

I was so hoping that Faraday with the record analogy was going to say that there are individual cycles of grooves on a record and each cycle is like a parallel universe, and what was happening was that they were jumping from one groove to the next, which I guess he sort of said but the idea of a record skipping over and over is that its between two points, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense seeing as they are jumping all over the place. I was also thinking he was going to prove my theory right by saying something like there is a cycle on the record but in their situation it was like the needle lifts every so often, its a closed time loop but they are like the needle and the record is like the island, still moving along its path but they are separate from it.

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I frickin’ LOVED this premiere, on par with any of the four others (and even better in places). Like all of the premieres it was a bit information heavy compared to regular episodes but that’s understandable – it’ll become clearer as the season goes on.

Right from the outset it gets right into the thick of things, eventually giving us more insight into the Dharma initiative videos and Dr Marvin Candle that we’ve seen oh so much over the series. And how awesome is it that the frozen wheel was already there, presumably allusive/unknown to even the Dharma Initiative? Just awesome.

I think the biggest thing we’ve gotten introduced to is the whole jumping back and forth in time thing. We’ve already seen it in sorts with Desmond but instead of just in one person’s mind we are now into the “physical”. On that note I wanted to a run a theory by you guys – ok, so the Island has “moved” in what we now know is in time but where to? My theory is that it has moved to round about the time where the Oceanic 6, Ben and Locke are i.e. three years forward from when we saw it move. And so when the Oceanic 6 (and Ben and Locke) get back to the Island it will be like they’ve only been gone a couple of hours/days/weeks (to the people who were left anyway it will seem that way). And I think my other theory will play out – that Locke, after being brought back onto the Island while dead, will be brought back to life (just as Jack’s dad was when he was on the plane, dead in the coffin – remember the coffin was broken open?). I think Locke has so much faith in the Island that he trusts Richard when he told him he needed “to die” in order to “save it”. I really love the way they’re going with the time travel thing – as a concept time travel is absurd but the way they’re handling it makes it believable within itself.

That’s all I can think of just now (:P), if anyone else has any other points that came up in the premiere let it be known and I’m sure some worthy dicussion will occur:-)

The problem with Sawyer’s nickname generator is that you first have to enter your full name. Saywer doesn’t know anyone’s real name! That’s why he uses nicknames.

I love it when he called Faraday Dr. Wizard and was corrected that it’s actually MR Wizard. lol.

This premier was pretty damn good I thought. I love the time travel thing and it will be fun to see where JJ takes it. I fully expect to see more than one of somebody/everybody at some point.

I also love how the characters who sort of know what’s going on converse with other characters (Richard – I won’t know you the next time we see each other, so just give me this [compass]) – (Faraday – listen to me Desmond, you don’t know me, but everyone’s life depends on you. You need to go to Oxford, etc, etc). – Love it.

PS
Locke: “What does [the compass] do?”
Richard: (Incredulous and snarky) “It points north, John.”

Ok I am totally back into loving Lost mode. Anytime you have a Desmond episode I am back. And I am really digging on the hook of this season, what they are doing with the people stuck on the island. I get a quantum leap vibe but its all good. So I guess we know what the whisperers are now, that have shown up in past seasons… probably people stuck the last time the donkey wheel was turned.

So much to absorb. I loved seeing the hostiles pre-Dharma, things are starting to click, seeing how Widmore fits in, why Albert was looking into Locke as a child.

does anybody else think that chick with the gun is the same that Faraday fried? Isn’t that what is supposed to be made of him saying you look familiar, and didn’t she say “you again” when they first encountered each other? But then afterwards she acted as if she didn’t know him? I don’t know, I am confused by that.

Interesting about the U.S. army being involved… where did they disappear to?

Rot, I was slow to warm up to this new season as well. For the first two episodes I found myself distracted by the time travel gimmick. I kept thinking “why this?” and “does that really make sense?”.

I’m totally over it now. I’m much more interesting in trying to crack the elaborate timeline they’re laying down.

the first time flash brings them to the day of Yemi’s plane crash. So probably no more that 3-5 years ago (lostipedia puts it at 2002 – 2004 but I don’t think it could be as late as 2004)

The second is after the swan station blew. Locke’s meeting with Alpert had me thinking it was in Locke’s future but now I’m not so sure. Last time we saw Alpert he was in primitive garb but in this scene he was in civilized clothes. I think it might be during season 3)

The third brings them to Desmond, so no more than three years ago. And the fact that it’s desmond who comes to the door leads me to believe that this is post oceanic crash, during season 1! That means that back at the beach Rose and Frogurt would be running into themselves. Arg.

Also, does anyone else think it’s weird that they named their kid Charles Widmore. Oh well. Hopefully Penny won’t end up being her own grandma.

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guess from that episode:

the woman holding the gun on Faraday is his mom, and she’s also the old woman who fucks around with Desmond and met Ben last ep.

Everything has been awesome so far. Things are coming together, and even if its retconned, its damn good retconning.
There hasn’t been more evidence that there is an end in sight and that they know what they’re doing than right now.

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@Goon,

Good call on who that woman pointing the gun at Faraday was! His mum! I didn’t click onto that one – sounds very plausible.

As a whole another amazing episode of Lost. I agree with you, rot, about the Desmond centric episodes – for some reason his always seem to be a bit more in “answer mode”, but it also seems they’re going to be in that promised mode for the rest of the episodes of Lost that are left.

I think the biggest bomb that they dropped (nothing to do with the hydrogen bomb shown in the episode:P) was that the young guy was Widmore! Just one of the steps they’ve taken to show that, yes, they have a clear end in sight (although we already knew that, this just seems to start to confirm it). So now we have the questions – Why did Widmore leave the island if in the future it seems he wants to find it so badly? And why is it that Ben, brought into the camp obviously much later than Widmore was originally there, took an element of control over it while Widmore for some reason went off of it? And on that note do you think the reason Widmore once spoke down to Ben using the term “boy” is because he was there on the island when Ben was brought there as a boy (remember when Ben crossed the magnetic fence and met Richard (with old clothes and long hair) in the woods?)?

Another question – How does Ben have contact with, and presumably take orders from, Ms Hawkings, aka most likely Daniel’s mother, and wouldn’t Ben know that Daniel was her son? Wait…..I can’t remember, did Ben EVER talk to Daniel at ANY point?

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Yeah that bring up a more general point – why is it that Ben and the rest of the Others left Desmond well alone in the hatch? I thought they weren’t supposed to be the ones who do experiments (remember Ben – “silly experiments”); you’d think they would want the Hatch for themselves instead of letting people continue on the button pushing thing for years.

Also I think you’re right with Widmore “playing” Desmond. Perhaps he knew that’s the position Desmond would end up being in and thus he willingly gave up Ms Hawkings’ address.

Btw I just noticed yet another way the story is all linking up (god I love this “answers mode” the show seems to be in now, almost as much as the mystery^_^) – the fact that we know Widmore was on the Island when he was younger obviously shows he knows (or eventually learns) about what it can do, particularly the time-travel thing. So that explains the part where Widmore said to Ben, in the episode where he was in bed at the end, if he had come to kill him and Ben replied, “We both know I can’t do that.” Turns out whoever said that was right; it wasn’t meant to be “I wouldn’t do that” but more along the lines of he literally CAN’T do that because of the not being able to change the past – “if it DIDN’T happen it CAN’T happen,” as Daniel kept saying -, which is frickin’ awesome how that links up.

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Ben and Dan never speak or met face to face. But remember, Ben knew all about the freighter folk because…. I HAVE A MAN ON THEIR BOAT.
So if there’s anything about Dan worth knowing then Ben knows it.

If Widmore was playing Desmond it’s likely an effort to smoke Hawking and Ben out into the open. Possibly his ulterior motive in funding Faraday all along.

I bet Widmore will stage a coup while Richard is off island stalking baby Locke.

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On the list of WTF unanswered questions in Lost, the role the button pushing plays in the show, both what it does and why, and how it relates to the Ben and Widmore, that is up there. Desmond’s seemingly spontaneous decision to resist pushing the button caused the plane crash in the first place, that is pretty big deal. How could that be pre-ordained, he wasn’t prompted, he seemed to do it of his own volition. As a Widmore pawn, Desmond was necessary to get the plane to crash, and I believe it has already been determined that the plane crash was a Widmore move. So how do you get everything to fall into place right up to the moment Desmond breaks down? Or is it possible that it is not the button pushing that effects the explosion, that its all a put-on… I don’t know… if I had one question to be answered its that, I don’t get it.

Regarding your idea Ross, I am not sure how changing the future can change the past? Or maybe you mean Widmore and Ben have both been to the future and they KNOW that neither of them can be killed… but somehow Ben’s daughter was killed, Widmore was able to break the rules.

They need to do something dramatic this season, and kill one of the big names… like Jack. I mean he was originally not supposed to be an important character so I can totally see them doing it.

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“They will NOT kill Jack, you can count on that. Or Kate, or Sayid, or Sawyer, or Hurley. Particularly Jack and Kate but ALL of those I mentioned won’t be killed off.”

I wouldn’t be too sure about that. You’re probably right, but I wouldn’t say for 100% certain they won’t kill someone off. And of course, even if they do, this whole time travel thing would keep them on the show anyway. Shit, even Anna Lucia showed up last week for a quick cameo (Michelle Rodriguez is looking good by the way).

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Also yeah, finding out that the younger abrasive guy on the island is Charles Whitmore was pretty earth-shattering. I thought maybe the young lady pointing a gun at Faraday was Russo, but she would be too old. So the old lady that Ben meets up with in the church from last week makes much more sense. “She’s in L.A.” – actually, now that I think about that, it makes perfect sense. The old lady lighting the candles telling Ben he only has 70 hours is Faraday’s mother AND the young lady pointing the gun at him 50 years earlier on the island. Is that right?

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@ Andrew,

Well yeah I forgot to differentiate between the two – they COULD kill him off but you can bet your ass if they do they will still have him in the show because of the whole time travel thing. What I meant was they won’t not have him in the show anymore. But I still don’t think they’ll kill him off– he’s too damned important!^_^

@ “Here’s a wild theory… is this THE Charlie? Is it possible that somehow Penny, Desmond and Charlie will all get caught up in the time warp thing and somehow Charlie ends up in Australia and becomes the Charlie we all know?”

That IS a wild theory indeed. But I don’t buy it. I think it’s simply that Desmond became such good friends with Charlie and was attached to him more than pretty much any other of the survivors (because of him having to save his life and plus he watched him die, remember). So he called his child Charlie – I really don’t think he thought about the name being almost the same as Widmore. And his name wouldn’t be Widmore….it’d be Hume. Remember that’s only Penny’s name but since the boy is Desmond’s as well (and I’m pretty sure he and Penny have gotten or will get married) his name would be Charlie Hume, not Charlie Widmore.

I’ve been thinking about what the whole 70 hours time limit is about; if you remember when Ms Hawkings was drawing on the chalk board (equations etc) and then when she went over to the computer (which was similar in style to the one in the Hatch) if you noticed it said “EVENT WINDOW DETERMINED”. And plus there was a pendulum thing with a piece of chalk drawing lines and making a target point on what seemed like some sort of map. So I’m thinking that they’re trying to find the Island (which the Others move, like Ben did, so that people like Widmore can’t find it) and they only have this “EVENT WINDOW” of time (which runs out in the 70 hours mentioned) where they can get back to the Island.

^^Which then brings up the question why is it so damned important that the Oceanic 6 (and Locke) go back to the Island? – “God help us all…” – Is it because “they were not supposed to leave” and by doing so it puts fate or time or whatever in jeopordy because they were supposed to stay there? So something “bad” (whatever that may be) will happen if all of them don’t go back.

@ “I still can’t get over the fact that the kids name is probably Charles Widmore. And they’re headed off toward time travel island.

They can’t possibly be going down the I-am-my-own-grandfather route… can they?”

I don’t think that will happen – that’s going down a fucked up road that just wouldn’t work. I think these kinds of theories are expecting too much on the crazy side of things from the show. Sure, they’ve been ballsy with moving the Island etc but I don’t think they’re going to make it completely out of the realm of possibility. In saying that….the whole time travel thing is outside the realm of possibility but the way they’re handling it makes it somewhat believable and something you can go along with and accept within the show.

To be honest I never saw that one coming – I never clicked that Widmore must have been on the Island as one of the Others just because of the fact he was trying to find the Island so badly; if he was an Other why is he not still on the Island?

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on a podcast I was listening to someone brought this up, and I gotta say, I would bet money he is right. The last shot of the last episode of the last season will be a close-up of Jack waking up on the island. Its like how Aronofsky said the end of the Wrestler was always going to be that way, there was no other way. A story like this, I feel like it has to go there, make it cyclical.

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@ if he was an Other why is he not still on the Island?

My guess is that Widmore seizes control through illigitimate means and then is oustered by Ben. Then they banish him to the mainland.

By the way, I don’t actually think Charlie Widmore is his own grandfather (although his doesn’t have to be Hume, it could go either way). I was just remarking on the turn of events. And the kid’s not Charlie Pace either.

@ my so my guess would be that they took them off the military guys

My guess is you’re right. In the recent lost recap show Lindeloff refered to the others as hermit crabs who take in residence in the husks of their defeated enemies.
But his friend had a “Cunningham” name tag and he was called Cunningham so explain that one.

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Jack won’t die. When this is all over, Jack and Kate will probably end up stuck on the island way in the past. We already saw their skeletons in the cave in Season 1.

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@ We already saw their skeletons in the cave in Season 1.

Wait… what?

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Allow me to walk you through my cognitive experience of the final minutes of last night’s episode

French people

(*blink blink*)

A French team shipwrecked on the island

(*blink blink*)

A French team shipwrecked on the island with an inordinate amount of time focused on the woman

(*blink blink*)

She is pregnant

(*blink blink*)

“My name is Rousseau”

(*blink … ah!)

I have never felt so dumb in my life.

Pretty lousy episode overall, felt like a time killer, and I was getting upset when I saw the french team, not MORE characters, but I guess this is okay because they fit within the pre-existing set. Still the number of characters on Lost is ridiculous, now essentially each character gets like one or two lines of dialogue an episode if they are lucky… so that anytime they do speak it has to take up the herculean task of moving character forward… nobody ever just shoots the shit anymore, the characters have no breathing room

Wasn’t thrilled with last night’s episode either. The reveal at the end made me feel like you Rot…. DUH!

I KNEW eventually they were going to start running into themselves. Sawyer seeing Claire and Kate was the beginning. If somehow they had tied that together from season one, I would be sitting here with a giant OMG comment. i.e. if in season 1 or 2 a character comes out of the jungle talking nonsense about this or that or the other thing, and now it comes back in season 5 as an “aha!” moment, that would be cool.

It would be like if you watched Back to the Future 1 and could see a second Marty McFly in the background (from part 2). I doubt they thought this far ahead back in season 1 of LOST though.

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I have heard it theorized that Widmore and Hawkings were an item, and that they had two kids, Daniel and Penny, but something in the past divided them and now Hawkings works with Albert and Ben.

That first baby is almost certainly Miles.

someone also on a podcast suggested maybe Locke is Jacob, that Jacob was just an alias, and he didn’t want to be known for whatever reason and he has been working through this alias as a kind of time police force.

lots of speculation.

I am betting Charolette is Ben’s daughter though.

@ I had no idea until you first heard them speaking French that that’s who the white rafts belonged to (and that they were the ones shooting at Sawyer etc)

nope.

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@ Do you think the little girl who gave Ben the wooden dolls – “You look just like her…” – is Charlotte’s mother, then?

It was actually Juliet who was said to have looked just like “her”.

Also, while it’s certainty possible “her” refered to Annie it was not resolved. Juliet also bears a resemblance to Ben’s mother. And since the person speaking was a psychiatrist I favor that interpretation.

But I agree. Ben is a likely suspect for Charlotte’s father. I also have my eye on Horace Goodspeed.

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Yeah I know it was referring to Juliette but what I meant was do you think “her” was Annie? I mean that could explain why he was so obsessed with Juliette because he had a strong relationship with Annie as he grew up and she either died or went off the Island (or something(?)) and seeing someone even resembling her would make him form an unnatural attachement/obssesion. And adding to that you’ve also got his “mummy issues”.

With regards to the “on the nose” approach this season I think it’s understandable because of how deep we are into the mythology now. They may be revealing/presenting things that we knew they would have to at some point but for anyone not obsessively coming up with theories it would just be like they’re presenting it naturally i.e. fans of the show like us who dissect everything may be able to foresee cetain things but a lot of people won’t.

I do agree that it’s a bit of a coincidence that they go back to points in time that effect them in some way (i.e. why wouldn’t it be thousands of years, for example?) but I guess you could look at it as a “fate” sort of thing. Or maybe it’s one of these cases (which I LOVE whenever they are used as a device in anything) – yeah it’s improbable but you can’t say it WOULDN’T happen. It’s possible! (to quote 12 Angry Men:)).

Although I agree that the flashbacks were a great device and those good old Lost days are missed I still don’t think it was a bad decision to get rid of them (at least for now – something tells me they’ll come back in some form at some point). I think the flashforwards were an ingenius idea and they work fantastically because instead of us finding out why this person is a certain way etc – i.e. oh THAT’S why that happened – we now we have the fun of guessing how we will get to a certain point. It adds an extra element of mystery without being overly contrived or confusing.

I disagree that they are laying it out too simply as far as things like “a British woman with blonde hair HAS to be Ms Hawkings” or “a Chinese baby HAS to be Miles”. Remember the writers revealed that they had a two-day solid sit down working out exactly where the show was going and how it was ending. So when you saw all those things that were later revealed to be what they were you have to remember they were most likely planned. So Ms Hawkings wasn’t just a creepy future telling woman in the Desmond episode to fit in with the feel of that particular episode – she was there for a reason and she fits into it overall.

I think you’re right, rot, that a lot of the stuff we have seen/will see in this season we will think we’ve worked it out but we will get the rug pulled from under us in the season 5 finale, making us second guess everything we’ve “worked out”.

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@Andrew,

But can you blame them? I mean isn’t it a hell of a lot more interesting to see how the future “losties” interact with things (and possibly people – like Sawyer did with Kate and Claire) that they come across in the past when the island moves through time? As opposed to running into things they had NOTHING to do with, either physically themselves or through connections? Where would the fun be in that? That also would open up a lot of new questions, as opposed to answering lingering ones (which is what they’re doing with the coincidental time periods they keep moving to mentality).

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Great episode. Lots of plot development. Lots of island stuff, not so much soap opera bullshit.

A couple people I was with complained about the time flashes getting out of hand, but it doesn’t bother me.

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@ they actually spent like fifteen minutes of an episode entirely on Jin

I liked that as well. And Locke getting ready for his big trip was probably my favorite moment of the season so far.

I was disappointed that we didn’t spend more time with the Rouseau’s. The off island stuff is still rubbish (with the exception of Desmond’s episode) and I can’t believe they still haven’t gotten the 06 back to the island.

Ben is increasingly likely as Charlotte’s father. But, don’t forget about the episode last season where he tried to kill her by shooting her repeatedly. Maybe he just didn’t know… but that seems out of character for him. That’s the type of thing he’d know.

But overall a suspenseful and well written episode.

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Oh one more gripe. When have Ben and Desmond ever met?

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Also I take back my early idea that Desmond is a pawn in Widmore’s game, because if we remember Hawkings came into a Desmond episode several seasons ago and told him to do something, so clearly he is being used by Ben and Eloise.

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This is the first time I can remember seeing Sawyer get really excited and/or happy about something (seeing Jin alive). I liked that scene.

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In general I don’t think much of Josh Holloway’s acting skills but he’s really good at playing off others. His scenes with Evangeline Lilly, Jorge and Matt Fox are great. He’s got a scene in season 1 with Malcolm David Kelly that’s pure hillarity.

L A M E episode

Oh, and the last 30 seconds? Awesome… in a wtf kind of way.

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someone on a podcast I listened to made the observation of the holy trinity reflected in Christian Shepard (take a guess who he represents), Jacob as God, and Smokey as the Holy Spirit. The religious speech by Ben kind of made me think this is a strong possibility for where they are going.

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a few little things:
http://www.ajiraairways.com/ – Ajira is Hindu for “island”

Hurley reading a copy of Y the Last Man. lol, he’s the last guy they showed/needed. That comic is by one of Lost’s newer writers and is very good.

I think the last episode that out and out disliked was “Stranger in a Strange Land”

everything else is relative.

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ah Rusty well there’s the rub, I love the cage scenes of season 3, we have different frames of reference for what is good clearly. The cage scenes were like Hans Solo getting frozen, it had that right degree of emotion to actually make you feel something for the characters.

as far as motivation of Oceanic Six, I think the point is that there is still a big mystery why Sayid, Hurley and Kate returned and that is going to probably factor into the big plot points of island mythology. Jack is obvious, I mean what does he have to live for? Sun’s motivation is to see Jin, thats clear. Apparently this episode was supposed to be after the episode that is coming next week, ‘the life and death of Jeremy Bentham’, but I guess they thought the punch of Jeremy Bentham was more important to end on before a week hiatus. Perhaps there are clues to why the Oceanic Six were there.

Big question, who is the dark-skinned guy sitting in the first class with everybody? Was he on the show before, I thought I recognized him from 24 or something. Whta is he doing there?

@ oh and the episode ‘I Do’, fucking hell, season 3 is so much better because it is like Empire Strikes Back to the latests eps Return of the Jedi.

How so?

Anyways, I overall season 3 is my favorite. It runs the deepest into the shows mythology, expands the world of LOST in interesting new ways and has the best finale. The Man Behind The Curtain is a likely contender for best episode ever. And Locke opposing Ben and vying for leadership of the others is a great story line.
But it’s all inspite of those first 6 episodes. After two season of teasing us with intruiging clues about the others these episodes go out of their way to make the others as lame and uninteresting as possible. Danny Pickett is an easy contender for worst Lost character EVAAA!
And that line about Jacob that you reference made me want to throw something at the TV at the time. We were supposed to be learning about the others and why they abduct people. And instead they tread water for 6 episodes and then pass the buck to some guy named “jacob” who I’ve never heard of and don’t care about. Fuck you, LOST!
Also, those six episodes include the only bad Lock flashback.

I will agree that those episodes are really well shot, and the acting and writing are as good as ever.

^^^^ yeah, like I said the episodes are well shot, written and acted. I was actually thinking of the glass between kate/jack scene when I wrote that.
It’s their place within the story that I criticize them for.

I also agree that the quality has taken a nose dive in these recent episodes. They’re not as visually impressive. The staging is shoddy. The pacing is frequently clumsy, the musical cues are often obstructive. In every scene I imagine the director yelling through a bullhorn “every relevant character go that way… for some reason”.
Remember when the show had characters? Now it feels like every character gets their token line per scene as per contract and that’s it.

What I don’t understand about your star wars analogy is how the current season is Return of the Jedi.

Han. Not Hans.

they need more Jack Bender

@ they need more Jack Bender

He directed The Lie and it was one of the worst episodes this season.

Rot, those would all be good points if I were saying Bender was a bad director.
But instead, what I’m saying is I don’t think the directors they’ve hired are the problem this season.

The Moth is a good pick for worst episode. I’d point to Dave, Every Man for Himself and I Do. Actually Further instruction is a contender as well. And an oddball pick Collision, the first Ana Lucia episode.
The two groups of survivors finally come together at last… and every scene lands with a thud. The meeting between Eko and Locke is terribly written.
And I’d include several episodes from this season already.

Best episodes: Lost In Translation, Deus Ex Machina, Man of Scienc…, Orientation, Man Behind The Curtain, The Brig, Greatest Hits, Through the Looking Glass, Constant, Kevin Johnson, Shape of Things.

Deus ex Machina is probably my favorite episode.

I actually think Fire + Water is underrated. And Expose is a great episode!

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the podcasts I listen to, it seems the divisiveness of episode 316 goes beyond this thread, there is a lot of hate and love for it… weird.

a couple of observations made on the podcasts:

I never even clued in that the oceanic six are behaving as proxies to other characters, i.e. Sayid is in handcuffs like Kate was, Hurley has Charlie’s guitar, there is a theory that Kate is pregnant like Claire…

regarding the bloodied Ben… I mean this seems so obvious in retrospect but none of us noted it… right before he left he said he had to keep a promise to an old friend, next thing we see is Ben bloodied by a pier… what was the event that Ben did not anticipate prior to entering the lamp post? I think Penny is dead.

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And for the record I figured Ben was going off to deal with Penny. I didn’t bother to speak up because I just figured it was Andrew being clueless.

Which podcasts do you listen too?

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I loved how in this episode it looked like at the start of it that they were going to keep the fact that Locke wearing a suit was his burial clothes and “shock” you with it at the end before “LOST” comes up on-screen. But no, straight away (almost) they confront that by Locke saying that’s what he think the suit is all about. I love how the episode was in “answers mode” once again but not feeling forced, contrived or like they were just having it to appeal to people wanting answers.

One of the things I’m loving about this season is the flip-flopping back and forth about telling the people left on the Island’s story and the off-Island people’s story. And the obviously once they go back it’ll become less back and forth in nature.

This episode felt very much remiscent of “The Other 48 Days”, even thpugh it didn’t have the “67 days ago” etc. They dealt with the reveal of just what happened to Locke off the Island EXTREMELY well – “okay we’ve got this mystery of what happened to Locke that can’t be dragged on too long and we’ll just give it it’s own episode to clear it up.” But also they didn’t make it obvious, as I said. I admit the encounters with each of the Oceanic 6 where Locked tried to convince them were less eventful and dramatic than I thought they were going to be but none the less the way they staged them i.e. the different locations = a different character I thought worked really well.

@Rusty James,

What do you mean Ben’s was off to deal with Penny? You mean kill her? Why would he do that? So that Desmond would have no attachements off-Island and he could come back? I don’t think that makes sense – after all if he’d killed Penny Desmond never would have went back and also he was surprised to see Desmon turn up at the church – he wasn’t expecting him to be there, and wouldn’t he if his plan was to kill Penny and leave him free to come along? Why would Desmond leave Penny and be so accepting of going ahead with searching for Faraday’s mother?

Something I’m wondering about – okay it was revealed that the Oceanic 6 dissapeared (along with Locke) while the plane was crashing so does that mean it’s because they were part of the Island or “were supposed to come back”? And also did Ben get transported with them? I mean that Caesar guy showed Locke to the room where the people who had been injured were so that tells us Ben crashed along with those other new survivors.

And we FINALLY got told just what the deal was with Widmore and Ben, about their past. “Everything you have you took from me.” So Widmore was exiled some how and the Island was moved so obviously Widmore couldn’t find his way back. And that’s why they keep moving it because they know Widmore will be forever searching for it and drawing closer but then they move it to keep him from finding it. One thing that kind of bothered me was the fact Abanon got just killed off – he was an intriguing character and I think they could have done more with him. Although thinking about it now we learned all we really needed to know about him – he’s just a guy who helps Widmore, nothing more (which past appearances of him suggested).

But holy crap when Ben suddenly started choking Locke! I could not BELIEVE IT! Did ANYONE see that one coming? Not moments before but I mean ages ago did ANYONE figure out that Locke hadn’t actually killed himself? And obviously the question quickly arises why did Ben kill Locke? I mean it seemed to be the mention of the Eloise Hawking that provoked him to kill him. I mean at first I thought that Ben realised that’s the way events were going to go i.e. Locke was going to die so the others (but particularly Jack) could be more convinced to come back but then just before he left the apartement he said “I’ll miss you, John. I really will.” Which suggests he didn’t know John would come back to life. If you think about it that’s one of the most shocking events to take place in Lost in quite a while, probably since the Island dissapeared on us. I mean Locke has been talked on and on about (including Ben) about just how important he is and yet at the mere mention of Ms. Hawkings Ben goes back on that and kills him? I wonder just what was going on there – was Ms. Hawkings working with Widmore (I think it’s probably going to end up that she and Widmore are Daniel’s parents, no?) and therefore Locke wanting to seek her out meant too great a risk? But then that doesn’t make sense either as Ben was ALSO going to see Ms Hawkings. Hmmm….

Again, I know I keep saying this (and I’ll continue to say it as long as it’s true – and it always has been so far) but yet ANOTHER amazing episode of Lost.

Now let’s see why Jin was wearing a Dharma outfit….

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@ What do you mean Ben’s was off to deal with Penny? You mean kill her?

Ben promised Widmore he’d kill Penny. When Ben was leaving he told Jack he was off to fulfill a promise to an old friend.

And Ben killed Locke for the same reason he tried to kill Locke last time and the same reason he took his place at the wheel. And the same reason he had Widmore banished (http://www.rowthree.com/2008/03/13/lost-discussion-thread-20/#comment-9413). Locke is his rival and a threat to his position of power.
He waited until he found out how Locke was returning to the island and then offed him.

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Oh yeah I totally forgot about Ben telling Widmore he’d kill his daughter. That makes sense he’d follow through with his promise. However 1) How would Ben be able to get to Penny, wouldn’t Widmore be watching her? 2) Why was Ben all beaten up and bloodied? Surely Penny didn’t do that… 3) Why would Desmond continue on with his searching for Ms Hawkings? Wouldn’t he want nothing to do with it since Ben would have killed Penny? Why wasn’t he upset?

Why would Ben be saying how important Locke was (not just when he was convincing him not to kill himself but for ages now) if he wanted power for himself? Why was the mention of Ms Hawkings’ name immediately the thing which triggered him to kill him? And why would he be guarding Locke’s body, making sure it makes it back to the Island if he didn’t want Locke to go back? His pause when Jack asked about why Locke’s body was so important if he was dead suggest Ben knows that he will be brought back to life once on the Island.

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Regarding my point about Locke as Christ, I am assuming I was not the only person to notice the overt cross symbolism in his suicide attempt? The beams of the ceiling were making a cross and his hang rope was near the nexus point of the cross. and then you have Ben bowing before him, I mean if Locke is not supposed to embody Christ in some way I would be deeply surprised. The doubting Thomas speech by Ben the episode before associate Jack as a disciple of John’s… also did you notice that all or virtually all of the locations that Locke went to in this episode, they were Saint references? Santa Domingo, Santa Monica, Los Angeles, I can’t remember the rest but it always something about saints. I don’t think they will go into literal dogma, its that sort of thing that they are touching upon on the faiths.

One theory I have heard that makes sense although its not really clear entirely is the idea of proxies, and Ben says something about proxies a couple episodes ago… people standing in for other people, much like the Aljira airline event… and throughout the show you see characters who seem like proxies for other characters… most notably Ben and Locke… Ben was in a wheelchair, Locke in a wheelchair, Ben the leader, Locke the leader. Juliet being a proxy of Ben’s love interest, and apparently Jack’s ex-wife.

no idea what that may mean

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I’m rewatching season three and one of the scenes that most puzzled me from that season is when Jack is in the cage and he wakes up and there are all these people staring at him, including the stewardess from the plane they crashed on, and he asks her what they are doing there, and she says really ominously, ‘we’re here to watch’. and you never see them again? what was that?

that and the Man from Talahasse, where suddenly Ben has Locke’s dad in a box tied up… these seem like important clues to something going on with the others that has yet to be explained. Locke’s dad would have had to been on the Island before the end of season two when the beacons for the submarine were destroyed and they couldn’t go back and forth bringing people… so why was he there?

And it is beyond me how there are still people in the audience who question Ben’s obvious villainy. How many nuns do we have to watch him rape before we stop going “well… she was dressed kind of slutty.”

@ I mean that Dharma station wasn’t familiar to us, was it?

We definitely saw the hydra logo. Hydra = station on small island.

Also, I just skimmed the episode and it’s even clearer. You can see the bigger island in two shots. I think they might even walk through the “landing field”. They’re on the small island.

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Rusty, yeah I think they’re on the runway they built on the smaller island

“Why was the mention of Ms Hawkings’ name immediately the thing which triggered him to kill him?”

I’m assuming its a case of “If John knows about Hawkings, they don’t need Ben’s help to go back”. Or Ben knew Locke was going to fail with Sun and decided to take the reins, desperate to prove he’s still the chosen person. A number of possible things.

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Lets not forget this isn’t the first time that Ben may have thought he had killed Locke, he also left him for dead on the Dharma grave.

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I don’t know Ross, I could see it either way. He clearly believes that Locke’s body is necessary for returning to the island. That gives Ben all the motivation he needs to cart Locke’s body around.

It sure was. Jesus damn that was a great episode.

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It’s funny how a lot of the discussion on here is about if we liked the episode or not, and not all about what actually happened etc:P

I really liked the feel of this episode – it continues the show being in “answers mode”. I was kind of surprised to find out that Sawyer, Miles etc lived out 3 years in real time with the Oceanic 6. I honestly thought it would be a matter of days for those still on the Island but, obviously, 3 years for the Oceanic 6. However thinking about it now, and taking in the way they went about it, it actually makes for better drama – the fact that they both have moved on in their own ways with, for example, Kate and Sawyer maybe not being in the same place as they were three years ago (emotionally, that is (not literally:P)).

One thing I was kind of dissapointed with was the fact that they showed the full statue (remember the four toed foot?) but only for a few seconds (and in the distance) before jumping to a time where we are now permanently. I assume, since the time jumping has stopped, we won’t see what that was all about (at least for the time being, no pun intended:P)? And on that note – does that mean that the three years it was for the Oceanic 6 off the island is NOT the time that they went to when they were transported onto the Island? What I mean is not only did they dissapear and move location but also travalled back to where Sawyer etc was? How did it just HAPPEN to be the same time? Also does that mean that they were moved through time when they originally crashed? Or was that just a natural, ordinary crash?

Do you guys think that Ben and Locke (‘s body) dissapeared when the Guam plane crashed? Are they in the same time as the rest of them? If so do you think Ben could visit himself when he comes to the Island as a young boy? It certainly would be interesting to see if the writers decide to include any instances of that – will they go with the “meeting yourself causes a time rip” angle that a lot of shows and movies that deal with time travel do?

I LOVE how they’re tackling the thing to do with Daniel and Charlotte (as a little girl). We saw Daniel in the premier in a Dharma outfit going to the Orchid when the discovered the frozen wheel. And I bet Daniel will end up warning Charlotte, bringing true what she remembered where a “crazy man” told her if she came back to the Island she would die. As Daniel repeated in this episode – “Whatever happened….happened.” So it’s kind of treating things as inevitable – Daniel obviously doesn’t want Charlotte to die so how could he resist the opportunity of warning her in the only way he can?

I’ve just thought of something – do you think Jack’s dad, Christian, has a history with the Island we don’t know about yet? I mean it WOULD go some ways to explaining why he seems to be doing stuff as if it’s his job. Maybe he was exhiled the same as Widmore and his drinking problem is somewhat as a result of him not being able to go back/find the Island. What do you guys think?

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@ Do you guys think that Ben and Locke (’s body) dissapeared when the Guam plane crashed? Are they in the same time as the rest of them?

Nope

@ do you think Jack’s dad, Christian, has a history with the Island we don’t know about yet?

Yes

@ I LOVE how they’re tackling the thing to do with Daniel and Charlotte (as a little girl).

Is it just me or does this episode place Charlotte as older than expected. The actress is 29 wich means she was 28 when they cast her. Ben actually states her birthday as 1979 (the same as Rebecca Mader’s) which would make her 25 on the show. Now they’re saying she’s 5yo (more or less) in 1974!?

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regarding the statue, according to people on the podcast, in the Jeremy Bentham episode there was a cutaway to Locke’s foot in the wheelchair and there were only four toes… I haven’t seen the shot again so I cannot verify, or even understand what that means.

watch the spoilers Rusty I had to add the buffer to your last comment

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“It was sort of getting from point A to point B minimalism.”

nuh uh

Everything has so many implications now that even if retconned work so well into the story that has built up. As far as sci fi goes, the time stuff is getting all 12 Monkeys as far as time travel goes… and the Alpert stuff is key. I mean, when you look at the fact they’re all in the 70s, and Alpert has now met Sawyer, past Locke, and will probably somehow know about the rest of the O6 and Juliet… when you think back to who’s being recruited, who’s on the lists, it starts all coming together more, it makes me think about how the Others tried to keep them captive for the sake of preventing what has been happening to the island… it all just adds another level of complexity, and so overall this is one of my favorite episodes this season, and more and more I’m feeling like even though I liked season 4 a lot, right now for me season 5 is the payoff to what they’ve built there, and theres still more to come.

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Yeah Ben’s friend was Annie. I really don’t think they would pull a “she changed her name once she left the Island”.

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I suppose it DOES make sense but it’s Lost we’re talking about – so far they’ve been pretty unpredictable (on the broader scale, for sure SOME people will dissect it enough to figure some stuff out, *cough cough*:P). Who knows maybe it will turn out that way but I agree I hope they don’t. For one her accent is TOO purely British (which it wasn’t AT ALL when she was talking to Ben on the swing, when she gave him the dolls) and secondly wouldn’t that make Ben the same age as her? Ben is AT LEAST ten years older I’d say.

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I’ve always suspected Jacob was Locke.

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@rot,

Okay here’s my theory about the whole time travel mythos they’ve set up within the show (which is pretty unique to the way any other show/movie has handled the concept): There’s been this repeated line (at least twice by Daniel now) that “whatever happened, happened.” So in that way you can’t change what happened, because if it didn’t “happen, it CAN’T happen.” So the thing with Sawyer bagning on the hatch door for Desmond, and no one answered – it’s not that he didn’t hear Sawyer banging, because when Daniel pretended he forgot his bag as an excuse to knock on the door for Desmond, when Desmond opened it he said that Daniel had been knocking on his door for the last 20 minutes. So he DID hear Sawyer knocking it’s just because he hadn’t met Sawyer at that point, something compelled him to not open the door. But because Daniel had met Desmond years before (in Oxford – Desmond went back in his mind, not body, remember?) so therefore Daniel was able to talk to Desmond (and tell him to find his mother).

Anyway my point is that the reason Jin and Rousseau didn’t have any recognition of each other in that past episode was because Jin hadn’t went back in time yet. So since he hadn’t yet, that means it wouldn’t have been cemented in the past. But if Jin came across Rousseau like he did when she was pregnant, then dissapeared again (like he did at the temple) and then reappeared AFTER the point where he first time travelled back and met her (when she was pregnant), let’s say a year later, then Rousseau would have the knowledge of meeting him when she first came on the Island. Does that make sense to anyone else? So it hasn’t happened, and therefore not cemented in someone’s memory, until AFTER the point in which they time travel back to meet them in the past.

Couple of things I wanted to throw out there:

Remember that video that was shown at Comic-Con with Pierre Chang aka Dr Marvin Candle sending a message from 30 years in the past? Well the guy who we can here off camera telling him “this is pointless, they’re never gonna’ see this,” I think is Daniel. We already saw him in the Dharma jumpsuit, when he bumped in the doc, when the Orchid station was being constructed. I think he may sort of muscle his way in with the doc because the two of them obviously share a passion for science and starts to help him with his research (my bet is you’ll see Daniel working as a scientist for Dharma, helping with, for instance, those bunny experiments).

Also the numbers transmission that Rousseau and her team were on the Island because of – I think the guy saying the numbers (before Rousseau changed the transmission to hers) was, also, Daniel.

And is there any doubt that the numbers are some sort of coordinates for either the Island or a location on the Island?

Also about the timeline of when things have happened – I saw a screencapture of Ben’s passport (can’t remember which episode it was taken from) and it said his birth year was 1963. So if we take it that when Ben first came onto the Island he was 9 or 10, well that would put the year he came on as ’62 or ’63. Just a year or two BEFORE Sawyer and the rest of them got stuck in time. So by that rationale Ben has already changed over to the Hostiles and at some point we know he comes back and is a sort of insider for them within Dharma. (Does that mean Sawyer etc will see a younger Ben at some point while working for Dharma?) But we also know the purge happens to all the Dharma people, but obviously they’re not going to have Sawyer, Juliet, Jin etc still working there and be purged so by that rationale they are not going to be stuck in the ’70s for the rest of the two seasons, are they? I think either Ben, Locke or Richard, maybe, will show them a way that they can move throw time to the present i.e. 2008 or so.

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Ah but was it Locke telling Richard to come visit him when he’s born the thing which made him do it? Richard didn’t confirm or deny this, but maybe he was already going to see him and it was just by chance that Locke told him to do that. Or maybe Locke is an exception to the rules like Daniel is.

Well whether the reason Desmond didn’t come to the door and meet Sawyer was because of him being compelled to not do it or whether it was a simple case of taking ages to put the suit on etc, it doesn’t matter. Point is that somehow he DIDN’T answer the door, either by compulsion or outside factor he still didn’t meet Sawyer because they know for a fact that it didn’t happen (yet).

But when they get stuck in the ’70s and came across those two hostiles that killed Paul and put a bag over Amy’s head – Daniel says “it doesn’t matter what we do,” and repeats the line, “whatever happened, happened.” So when Daniel told Sawyer that he couldn’t meet Desmond because he hadn’t yet, the only reason he could say that is because they know for a FACT that they don’t meet until years later. But now that they don’t know what was supposed to happen (when they’re stuck in the ’70s), whatever they do DID actually happen (they just don’t know it and therefore can’t change it). Does that make any sense?

Ah but you don’t get my point. Okay let’s say Rousseau hadn’t died (when those freighter army dudes shot her) and she was still alive in present time (i.e. before the Island was moved by Ben). Okay Jin gets transported back in time with Sawyer, Juliet etc and is found by Rousseau’s team (when she was younger, in 1988). So that means they’ve met. BUT the reason I’m saying Rousseau wouldn’t remember Jin in past episodes before she died is Jin hadn’t travelled back in time yet to meet her. It doesn’t get cemented in history and in someone’s memory until the time the time travelling has taken place. So what I mean is if Rousseau was still alive in present time, as soon as Jin had travelled back in time she would instantly (like a click of the fingers) have the knowledge. But she didn’t have it before the time (relative to Jin, that is) he travelled back in met her 16 years ago.

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Haha, just about the funniest thing I’ve heard all week. I literally burst into laughter involunterally.

Yeah I know what you mean, it used to be so simple. They needed fire wood, so they got fire wood. Okay, move on. Now they’ve got us debating with essay-length replies on comment boards and forums about why they wouldn’t be able to remember other characters because they haven’t past the point they travelled back in time. Who’d have thought back at the start of season 1 we’d be where we are now in season 5?

It’s AMAZING

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What could be more important than Lost?! Screw those term papers! Never mind your job! I wanna’ know what you think about my theories and stuff! Haha.

Make sure you don’t forget what it was you wanted to say and write it up when you get the chance, I’d love to read it:-)

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Wow, what an AMAZING episode. Arguably the fastest paced of the season so fast – the jumping back and forth was A LOT of fun in this one, you trying to keep up with it but at the same time not feeling miffed as to when we are supposed to be.

The first thing I must say it how good of a direction they’ve chosen to go in with how the Oceanic 6 (or 5, is it?) are going to integrate (at least for now) with what’s going in 1977. I was kind of puzzled as to how they were going to go forth – after all, all we’ve heard about for ages now is how they “have to go back.” And I was wondering what happens when they do go back? Well the whole thing where they are pretending to be new recruits is quite brilliant, and yet so simple.

One thing which jumps immediately to mind is why is Sun the only one of the O 6 to not get transported back in time? I can understand why Ben and Frank wouldn’t get put back, simply because they weren’t part of Jack, Kate etc for the whole time. But Sun, by how the story is functioning at the moment, should by all rights go along with the rest of ‘em. I thought maybe it would turn out that everyone (the Guam plane survivors) had been transported back, but Christian “what the hell is up with him?!” Shepherd showing her the new recruit picture kind of cements the fact that they are in different times, does it not?

Now we got introduced to a character we have heard about for 3 seasons now – Radzinsky. If you remember correctly he was the guy that Kelvin (the guy in the hatch that Desmond killed) was partners with while pushing the button. But by the time period Radzinsky is supposed to be in i.e. ’77, then wouldn’t that make him almost in his ’70s when he committed suicide? He looked about 45 when we saw him in the episode (’77), and it would be AT LEAST 20 years later that he and Kelvin were partners in the hatch. It’s not impossible but it just struck me as kind of odd…the age difference, that is.

Did anyone else call that Ben would appear as a young boy in the time that Sawyer etc were there? I called it before we even saw him bringing a sandwich to Sayid at the end. Because remember the first flashback episode we had of Ben, he was being “recruited” along with his Dad. Clearly since Sayid had just been put into the jail cell, Ben hasn’t crossed over and went with the Hostiles yet. So does that mean that when he DOES go over the sonic fence, meets Richard and becomes part of those people, that he will help Sayid (because by that rationale he would be one of Ben’s people, then), and perhaps Sawyer, Jack, Kate etc? Also I wonder if the reason that Ben always seems to know so much is if he remembers everyone from the past. However that kind of goes against my theory that people don’t have memories of the past until the point those people he remembers have travelled back. Perhaps he is constantly getting new memories of the Losties, which would, again, explain why he always seems to know so much.

Oh! When Amy was lying on the hammock and Juliette asked what she and Horrace were goiong to call their son – did anyone else think she was going to say Jacob? Haha, I totally thought she was:P Turns out it’s Ethan:) Nice…the way they’re linking stuff together. However wouldn’t that make him about 26 or 27 when he attacked the survivors in season 1? That actor is about 40 or something:P I suppose, if they can make Michael Emmerson (he who plays Ben) play a character who’s about 40 when in real life he’s 54, then they can do anything:P

I think it’s pretty clear that the Losties won’t stay in 1977, or else they would get purged along with the rest of Dharma, wouldn’t they? I think somehow Ben, Sun, Frank and, of course, Locke will get to the same point as the rest of them, and they will figure out how to get back to the present time.

That’s my initial thoughts, anyway.

How ’bout you guys?:-)

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I give up, what you guys praise I criticize and vice versa… I thought this episode was really flat. It just connected the dots, there was no sense of weight to the characters, characters coming to terms with time travel, Jack just seems to be cool with anything happening. I love anytime Sawyer or Juliet was onscreen but otherwise, I thought this was one of the weakest, poorly directed, just clumsy, getting into Back to the Future navel gazing of their own cleverness.

I did like Sun hitting Ben, after getting the information she needed… karma clearly.

So Christian must have came from Ben’s lair, which has some connection with the temple and Smokey… no idea what it means. There was the sense the Smokey was in the bushes, so that triggered Christian being in Othersville.

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@ It just connected the dots, there was no sense of weight to the characters, characters coming to terms with time travel, Jack just seems to be cool with anything happening

I sort of agree about the episode overall. But this comment is waaaay off. Jack wasn’t cool with any of it. He’s pissed off he’s a janitor. And Sawyer has clearly moved on and has situated himself in his new life. That scene in his living room is great for what isn’t said.

I’m not as enthusiastic as Andrew and Ross though. There seems to be a lot of needless and arduous exposition this season. Do we really need to watch hoowky reaction shots while Sawyer tedious explains to the O6 what we already know? The answer is “no”.

Honestly, I’m just glad we’re not dicking around with the O6 anymore. I went back and rewatched “316″. I’ve decided it’s THE WORST EPISODE EVER!

And Andrew, I had a different read of the scene where Juliet is holding Ethan. To me her reaction reads more like regret and saddness. She knows eventually he’ll be taken away from his parents. And there’s nothing she can do to stop it.

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I like your theory Ross about Sun being the baby shown in the season opener.

Isn’t there an event in Sayid’s life that has to be shown, that Ben referred to in the episode when he was recruiting Sayid as his assassin? Maybe it has something to do with this time period? I don’t know.

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@ why wouldn’t all of the Others etc, remember the Losties and what they did when they went back in time?

There’s actually no reason to doubt that the Hostiles do remember them. They knew all about the 815′ers before formally meeting them. Including information that wasn’t publicly available; like Sawyer shooting the shrimp truck guy.

And remember their reaction when the plane crashed above them. It’s not at all a stretch to think they’d been anticipating this event.

Russeau can’t be explained away as easily, but answer this challenge. What if instead of just meeting DR, Jin shot and killed her? Would she not “remember” until 2005 and keel over dead (obviously she’s already dead, but you get what I mean)?
It’s enough for me that Jin and DR never interacted that much. And DR’s seen a lot of weird stuff in the years so maybe she just went with it. So, it’s a retconn either way but not a significant one.

@ I think the reason Ben and Sun didn’t go back to the same time as Jack etc is because time/space won’t allow two versions of the same person to be in the one time.

This is a popular theory I’ve heard, and the fact that Charlotte didn’t jump with them does support it. But in The Little Prince they specifically jump back to the day Claire gave birth. So Sawyer Jin and Locke were all on the island as well. Locke and Sawyer specifically discuss the possibility of going to meet themselves.
And besides most of the characters are more than 30 years old so there’s and a 77 version of them somewhere.
I don’t completely rule out your theory though. A lot of those objections can be explained away.

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@”There’s actually no reason to doubt that the Hostiles do remember them. They knew all about the 815′ers before formally meeting them.”

I think it all hinges on Ben with that one. He and Ethan are the only two that were there both from the 70′s AND when the Losties first crashed on the Island (not including Richard and the rest of the hostiles). Ethan wasn’t seen as much to be able to say with him, but again it all hinges on Ben. He always looks like he’s hiding something, that he knows more than he’s letting on (recently he’s been lying a lot directly, saying he doesn’t know anything when he clearly does). But I dunno, that scene at the start of season 3 when Ben rushed out of the house in Othersville, looked up and saw the plane break in half and then immediately gave orders to everybody… – he seemed pretty shocked. I mean it was a bit strange that he reacted so quickly…although, now that I think back to it, perhaps his shock was just that it happened not exactly when he thought it would (i.e. he had been told about it in the past but never actually believed it would happen). I’m still sticking with my theory, but I don’t totally disagree with yours. Something tells me the show will go a totally different direction than either of us:P

@”But in The Little Prince they specifically jump back to the day Claire gave birth. So Sawyer Jin and Locke were all on the island as well. Locke and Sawyer specifically discuss the possibility of going to meet themselves.”

Well perhaps it doesn’t apply to them since they were constantly being shifted and not totally stuck there (like they are in the 70′s).

@”Is everyone else in agreement that they were building the airstrip for Frank to crash land on? All of a sudden using Kate / Sawyer as forced labour makes sense. It’s their ass that’s being saved the least they can do is move a few rocks.”

Oh wow, that’s a good one. I don’t think it’s going to be true but it’s good thinking. I honestly don’t think it’ll be that complicated – I just think they were building a runway for “a plane” not “a specific plane” to land. Perhaps they were just thinking “it’s about time we had another way to come to the Island other than the sub.” (Aha! If the sub is, in fact, the actual truth as to how people come and go from the Island (or used to)! – there’s speculation that that’s just for appearances sake and they actually are transported somehow, not through time but just physically – hence why people need to be knocked out with sedatives first.

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I think the reason Ben would have a plan, and why he would want to infiltrate them at all, is simply because he’d obviously want control over anyone who landed on “their island”. Ben’s a crafty guy by nature, and he also wants control over anything that affects him. Hence why, for example, he went in person to find Locke at the Hatch (when he got caught in the net by Rousseau and pretended he was Henry Gale) – it was too important of a mission to just send anyone.

And about your runway theory – I’ll meet you halfway. I don’t think the Others (as we knew them when they had Jack, Kate and Sawyer prisoner) were building the runway in preparation for the Ajira plane – I think Christian/the Hostiles/Jacob knew and remember Ben takes/took his orders from Jacob. So I think Ben was told he needed to build a runway, not knowing what for. So tehnically they were building it in preparation for the second plane crash but not knowingly.

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Ouch! Nice one, Rusty! That really validates your side of the argument that they remember them from the past. That DOES explain a lot of the stuff you mentioned (although I don’t get the bit about Libby? What do you mean by that?). But when did Widmore say he wanted to extract Ben so Locke could lead? Wasn’t it Ben who said that while trying to convince Locke not to hang himself? Also DID he know Desmond was on the Island? Did he say that? Did we see evidence of that? Is it just me who can’t remember?

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@ although I don’t get the bit about Libby? What do you mean by that?

a couple points:
libby was in the hospital with Hurly but she lied about it later. So it wasn’t just a co-incidence.

libby was instrumental in getting Desmond on the island by giving him a boat.

Libby is the same as Abaddon, she gets people to where they need to be.

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@ Also DID he know Desmond was on the Island? Did he say that? Did we see evidence of that?

Sorry, obviously I’m reading your post piecemeal. Naiomi had the picture of Desmond/Penny with her when she parachuted and the cover story that she was sent by Penny ready to go. The freighter knew about Desmond = Widmore knew about Desmond.

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@ I disagree that the reason Ben went himself was because he was “desperate” – I think it was because it was so damned important

Then why send Ethan in the first place?

Obviously
a) it’s important to have a spy among the survivors
b) Ben would rather send someone else.

Don’t you think he’d have to be pretty desperate to pull the same trick twice? Especially when the predecessor died? Would you volunteer for that mission?

my explaination is pretty boring but it works. it’s virtue is simplicity.

(Dude, you need to remember to put the spoiler warning:P)

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I don’t think Libby is the same as Abaddon. I really don’t. When she gave Desmond that boat I don’t think it was to make sure he got to the Island. I genuinely believed her story about it being her dead husband’s boat. Obviously there’s something more to her story since we saw her in the mental hospital, but I don’t think she played a significant and/or knowing part in stuff that’s happened on the Island.

Ah, you’re right, I had forgotten about Naomi (since she was killed pretty quickly:P), and the fact she had the picture of Desmond and Penny. Maybe Widmore thought that sine Desmond hadn’t come back from his “race around the world” then he might be, by chance, on the Island that he (Widmore) had been looking for all these years (since it dissapeared on him:P).

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@ (Dude, you need to remember to put the spoiler warning:P)

I know. I’m terrible about it.

I admit I might be jumping the gun with Libby. I hasn’t been confirmed. But we KNOW she’s lying about something. And we KNOW Widmore sends his minions to tail people. And we saw him do the exact same trick with Abaddon / Locke. I find it awfully tempting to connect those dots. But we’ll see.

@ Maybe Widmore thought that sine Desmond hadn’t come back from his “race around the world” then he might be, by chance, on the Island

That however is a stretch! From a story telling standpoint Ross, does it make more sense to have Widmore bank on a one in a million shot, or does it make more sense for him to exploit the fact the fact he has met time travelers.

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Haha, I admit that Widmore thing is a HUGE stretch. I guess I’m just trying desperately to back up my theory(ies):P It does make more sense with the mentality of the show, your way, but I just feel really strongly about my version of the time travel because we haen’t seen any evidence in past episodes of characters remembering the Losties from the past (not including speculation and 20/20 hindsight, that is). If Rousseau had looked like she remembered Jin, or if Ben had let on about knowing Sayid (he didn’t say anything either way), if Richard had let on to Locke when he was telling him that Sawyer would be the ideal candidate to kill his dad for him…… But because there’s none of that (obviously since they didn’t have specifics of this time travelling stuff worked out back in those earlier episodes), I’m not fully convinced. Maybe some people (like Widmore, like Ben) can remember because they were with the Hostiles (i.e. they have special priviliges, abilities etc to do with time travel, that allows them to do all these things (e.g. be some of the few who can remember past thing before the people have gotten to the point of travelling back aka my theory:)).

Oh and sorry, I picked what you said up wrong. I thought you meant Ben met Sayid for the first time while on that Ajira plane…I was like “whhaaatttt?!” haha.

So you think present Ben remembers Sayid from when he was a young boy? Then why didn’t he EVER let on about it? Wouldn’t it have come out at some point? Wouldn’t he have told him SOMETHING while he was being tortured, just to get him to stop? Or is he that adament about lying and keeping the secrets of the Island and his people? Or perhaps he CAN’T tell the future people about what they end up doing in the past – one of “the rules”, maybe?

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The Others taking on the fake beard disguises of the Hostiles is another example of this cyclical proxy relationship

I can’t remember if I brought this up before, but you do realize that Richard Alpert is some kind of Egyptian?

R.A. is Ra, the sun God. loads of hieroglyphs on temples and egypitian like statues. and Richard has eyeliner, hello.

Horace sounds like Horus, the other significant Egyptian God.

again, not me who came up with this, just passing along the idea.

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@I can’t remember if I brought this up before

So you are Mike Rot. Why are you going incognito today?

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@Mike,

Shit, sorry. I thought you said Daniel was going to be Amy and Horice’s baby, not Desmond:P That would have been a twist if it WAS Desmond, eh? It being Ethan throws another wrench into the machine, he didn’t seem like he was anyone special.

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Yeah, Goon, I saw that when I rewatched “Namaste” yesterday (after hearing people talking about it on some podcasts). I agree that it seems far too blatant to be a mistake i.e. just a crew member. It doesn’t look like Claire from what we can see, the hair colour is exactly like Charlotte’s was. However at the same time as it being too blatant (if it WAS a mistake how the HELL did they not catch that in the editing room?), they didn’t put ANY emphasis on it for it to mean anything significant, at least not for the moment. Maybe they’ll we’ll go back to that exact point in a future episode (next week, perhaps?), and it will just continue on from Christian saying, “You have a long journey ahead of you…”

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again, proxies.

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so Radzinsky is the guy who wrote the map on the lockdown wall of the Swan? They need to get back to that and explain it.

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I bet the dharmas have a dog. And they’re saying He’s Our Vincent.

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They better pull a Locke and have young Ben wake up with a bullet wound and be fine!

There can’t be paradoxes. That’s the whole point. Whatever happened, happened.

Thematically it makes much more sense for Ben’s rise as Jacob’s prophet to mirror Locke’s rise as prophet rather than violate their own rule.

Great episode and not at all predictable.

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In the first 15 minutes of this episode I was a bit underwhelmed, but after watching it in its entirety, I actually loved it. It’s not one of the best of the series so far, but I loved them getting back to the flashback style storytelling. Although not strictly in the flashback sense that we used to get before the flashforwards, it still used past events to explain current things.

I have to say, I didn’t see that coming – Sayid killing young Ben. I WOULD have if it weren’t for the thing of “how can he be killed if he’s there in the future?” Since they’re going down the “whatever happened, happened” route then it’s an interesting, bold thing to introduce that someone can kill someone in the past but the future/current version is still there. If Ben is still alive in the future does him being killed by Sayid in the past affect him at all? Or will he simply not be dead and just get back up? Something I noticed might back up the latter – do you think Ben survived Sayid shooting him and he obviously remembers that he did that, so that’s why he told Sayid in the future that he was a killer, because he said that right before he shot him? I could see it going either way, and I’d be fine either way, too.

So…. Sayid being in handcuffs had nothing to do with Ben attempting to kill Penny. I thought Sayid and Desmond would be together at some point, and then Ben turned up to try and kill Penny, and BOTH Desmond and Sayid beat him up (hence the state he was in when he called Jack from the marina), and then Ben had Sayid arrested on put onto that plane (he obviously has a lot of power – he managed to get Hurley off with a triple murder charge!) But the fact that he just happened to be on the same plane, going to Guam, kind of emotes the whole “fate” thing. It’s another one of those occasions where it’s improbable but not imPOSSIBLE.

I kind of was irritated (in a good way…maybe!) when Sayid was given that thing to make him tell the truth, and then when he said “ask Sawyer,” Radzinsky interrupted him. Imagine if they’d followed through and checked who Sawyer was – would Sawyer have killed of those guys? Run away? That Radzinsky guy is kind of annoying – all he keeps saying is “he’s seen the Swan”:P

I agree, Rusty, it was a really unpredictable episode. Great stuff.

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not that you said anything spoilery, but again, headers Rusty.

we have a ‘rule’ told by a few characters, that doesn’t make it a rule, thats an opinion, and by the way Faraday behaves throughout the show I doubt as if it is definitive. I am hoping they are taking us through stages of understanding the rules of this universe, kind of like how Ben tells you only what you need to know for the time being, and that this seeming paradox is a way to invite us into another way of understanding what is going on.

Hawkings even admits she doesn’t know what happens when you deviate from the proxies on Aljira, I truly think that Young Ben is dead and it is a way of exposing us to this other big dimension of the story, that not even Hawkings or Faraday properly understand.

I think this event may be part of what Carleton Cuse was saying would be the event at the end of season five that will blow your mind, and overturn everything you thought you knew.

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Just remember at one point we thought Ben knew everything about the island… I think the way the show goes it keeps pulling back to show how one concept gets overtaken by the next, that is the genius of the show, how they capitalize on our expectations at every point of the journey.

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Rot, I agree with you on one point and one point only. And that is that the writers have to confound out expectations.

@we have a ‘rule’ told by a few characters, that doesn’t make it a rule, thats an opinion

Nope.

@ lets not forget Alex was killed and from the perspective of Ben that went against ‘the rules’

That’s a stretch. They were probably just playing by mafia rules.

@ “our treatment of time travel is unique in that we do not need to worry about the usual paradoxes”… I don’t know what to glean from this

That is because you are over thinking things. What the writers are trying to tell you there is that “what happened, happened” is not just someone’s opinion it’s a story telling device that the writers are imposing for a reason.
It’s interesting because it’s an affront to our free will and that’s what this storyline is about. When freewill confronts destiny.
The first thing we learned about time travel this season is that you can’t go back and kill Hitler. But what if you want to, what’s stopping you? That’s what Sayid’s about to find out.
I’m sure this paradox vs. destiny question will get addressed next episode and then we’ll know the answer. Guess what it’s titled.

@ I refuse to believe in giant scheme of things they are going to tell their story within a reality where there is no free choice

BSG just did.

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@ yeah and the episode after that is called ‘Dead is Dead’ and its a Ben-centric episode.

Dude, not cool. No spoilers. I don’t like to know who the episodes are about before hand.

since the cat’s out of the bag though,

@ I’m not so sure next week’s episode will explain everything, it focuses on Kate.

WTF. Again? I was sure from the title it would be a Dan Faraday episode. I want Faraday, Ben, and Miles not more dicking around with Kate.

@ you are thinking of this too binary, Rusty, you think its either course correction or kill Hitler

I don’t know why you’re assuming that. You said Ben would die and there would be a time paradox. I said there wouldn’t. Anything else is your own conjecture.

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I also don’t buy this course correction theory as some kind of universal rule because time and again we have been shown examples where time travel has altered future events… as Faraday says Desmond is special… he remembers changes in the past he changes his course in the future (in the Constant and this season) and the result may be deadly with Penny, something we have yet to see. Faraday is told something in the past in the Constant and it changes how he does his experiments and changes what is written in his journal, and if they go the route of saying yeah but everything course corrects, I find that really lazy, it totally discounts the butterfly effect, that what anything goes except someone dying? Desmond and Penny can alter their route across the globe but things will course correct?

I think the ‘whatever happened, happened’ is a transitional way of explaining phenomena, and with a season and a half to go, I doubt that will stay a fixed point.

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The note in the journal was already there ONLY because Desmond traveled back in time! Now you can step WAY BACK and say irrespective of timelines and time traveling everything that happens is what is supposed to happen but that is a really meaningless and lazy statement. I think people keep saying this stuff in the show because from their limited perspectives in the show that is how they interpret what is going on (Hawkings remember didn’t KNOW what happens with anomalies in the Aljira proxy). We have seen this time and time again in the show, the people who seem the arbiters of truth as to what is going on in the show are later shown to be limited in their knowledge…

now bear with me, I heard this as a theory on a thread somewhere else and it sounds crazy, but I think it would be pretty cool… what if Ben knew that when on Aljira he couldn’t go back to the Dharma time because he already existed there and that there is a rule that you cannot meet yourself (even if he existed just as whispers which is perhaps what would have happened in the scenario, for example, where Locke sees the light from hatch in Season 1).
How would Ben overcome this if he felt it vital to exist in that time period. Well make a way for Sayid to be on the plane so that when he goes back and encounters young Ben he will do what is in his nature, Kill him. Thats right, Ben puts a hit on himself.

I still maintain the reason Ben and Sun did not go back to that time period is because they already exist there. Sun as Chang’s baby in the season opener. So whatever their journey is, Ben was one step ahead knowing he needed to make room for him to exist in that time period.

now how would killing young ben not kill old ben, because ‘whatever happened, happened’ meaning its not rigidly linear, it is already knotted. we assume of time as normal with this abnormality affecting it, but what if it was always this way, that our perception of what is normal is built on a falsehood, and the island exposes this.

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I agree that characters are not “in the know” as they say, but the whole “whatever happened, happened” thing isn’t just because Daniel said it – it runs through the show, even before he said it. The fact that the Others had all that info about the Losties (I am calling it right now that’s what’ll happen – to preserve the future – “whatever happened, happened” ), the fact that Richard went to see Locke as a baby after Locke told him to (“whatever happened, happened”), the fact that Desmond ended up on the Island even though he wanted to marry Penny (he was compelled – “whatever happened, happened”), on and on…

Although I would still like to say “that’s too complicated” as a response to you, since you told me not to I won’t (wait…didn’t I just?….). I concur that when Hurley layed all the stuff that’s happened out to his mother it sounded RI-FREAKING-DICULOUS (loved how the writers were completely savvy of that, and worked it in there:P), but remember they only have a season and a half (even less now..) to finish the show, wrapping stuff up and what you’re saying opens up stuff that would take seasons and seasons to explore properly.

I think the whole “you can’t meet yourself” thing is a good way to go, though. The same with trying to change the past (as Daniel said) – not that it would have some sort of horrible effect like a time rip or make the universe implode or something, but you just can’t, you would simply FAIL.

However overall, what you’re saying I can’t buy into because not only does it not make sense (the Ben being dead in the past thing) in general, but it doesn’t make sense within the show. Again, how can Ben be there in the future if he was killed when he was a young boy? Maybe you’re thinking of the future that Ben, Sun and Frank etc are in is some sort of alternate reality, but again, I don’t think it’ll be complicated as that. I think, and I hate to harp on about it, but whatever happened, happened. EXCEPT, and this may seem like a contradiction, but there are CERTAIN things that can be changed, hence why one of the upcoming epidoes is called The Variable. But even then the change they make will have to work within some sort of framework or “set of laws”, if you will – hence “you broke the rules.”

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I find this interesting, maybe I am not explaining correctly or maybe you are too linear, but my interpretation of ‘whatever happened, happened’ makes sense, philosophically, its just counter-intuitive. The creators have maintained that their time travel is unique, so why not have as part of this unique interpretation non-linear reality?

Philosophically, causality is a dodgy subject, its very hard to pin down how cause and effect works, and it just becomes easier to accept it without knowing why. what if there was no past present future, only NOW, but as consciousness we process information as if there was linear time, but that is a trick of our mind, not reality. We seem to think that there are paradoxes in time travel, because you would change the course of the future by affecting the past, but if you picture reality as a fixed state and only our perceptions of causality changing, then there are no paradoxes, there is only the immediate now. Like I said before where does the presumption of linear time come from but via consciousness (John Locke the philosopher was all into this shit), this is a staple of cognitive philosophy. This PRESUMPTION is just that, and it is just as likely that REALITY underlying our perceptions is linear, non-linear, or like I said, knotted, in a way that some kind of fixed reality is set (whatever happened, happened) BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT WAS LINEAR, THAT MEANS WHATEVER FORM REALITY TOOK, WHETHER IT HAD SAYID ALWAYS GOING BACK AND KILLING YOUNG BEN (EACH MOMENT IS NOW) IT HAS NO CAUSAL PARADOX. Another way to say it: the unfolding of the story of the universe is preset with worm holes and time travel disruptions that come before any talk of paradoxes, it is what always happened, moment by moment, determined by the fixed reality not by any governing laws (the laws are created from consciousness that overlays reality with linear causality – again an established Locke philosophy, and Hume for that matter).

I can understand the argument that audiences aren’t going to like counter-intuitive explanations in a serial show, no matter how prevalent these ideas are in science and philosophy. I think if they find an intriguing metaphor, an intriguing way of expressing this UNIQUE approach to time travel that foregoes paradoxes, it could be done.

I am not going to say how they package it, but I am firmly in the camp that Young Ben is dead and there is no paradox.

We shall see shortly who is right.

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@ and furthermore I believe THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME is that the characters become aware of the fallacy of the rules, and start to realize something bigger than causality and paradoxes governs how things play out (and they can sheath it God’s plan if they want for a narrative) but scientifically it can be thought of as non-linear reality, Nirvana, Satori, The Road to Awe, whatever you want to call it, or Freud’s term the Oceanic feeling which is a precognitive interconnectedness, oneness.

Rot, do you realize that is ONE sentence? I’m still trying to figure out the parenthetical, I think the parentheses are placed randomly.

I tried to read your posts but they’re impenetrable. I think you have that disease that Kevin Spacey had in Seven that caused him to fill up all those notebooks.

I think if you break up your points into smaller increments and tie them to spefics points in the show your posts might gain more clarity.

^^^^^^ I wrapped the whole thing in blink tags and style info. But wordpress stripped ‘em all out thus ruining my hilarious joke.

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@Ross

” I think, and I hate to harp on about it, but whatever happened, happened. EXCEPT, and this may seem like a contradiction, but there are CERTAIN things that can be changed, hence why one of the upcoming epidoes is called The Variable. But even then the change they make will have to work within some sort of framework or “set of laws”, if you will – hence “you broke the rules.”

I am saying this exact thing, except I think you have limits on what you think the variables COULD be.

whatever happened, happened… its fixed like in amber, but that does not mean Sayid going back in time and killing young Ben is a transgression of this belief, it means that too always happened. You make the assumption that linear time is a given in “God’s plan” and that is a stubborn conviction of reason, of the man of science.

There is a huge piece missing that creatively the island mythology could explain, and lay out just how non-linear reality could be palatable in this show, I don’t think it will take a lot of episodes to explain, I think actually the remaining episodes are going to lay this out and that will be the big WTF of the end of the season.

lets not forget we have had Michael incapable of killing himself (that is a miracle, that goes against regular laws of causation) we also had characters jumping in time, back and forth, transmitting information that changes things in the future, I think it is more ridiculous to say all that is fine, but you can’t kill someone (in a show that has seen two resurrections already!). There seems to be a fixed plan (the island is not done with you yet) and how things are fitting is not due to causal laws, logical laws, but something grander.

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When I said that CERTAIN things can change I did mean, as you say, that there is limits. But as far as Ben being killed goes, the reason I don’t think he’ll be dead is because of how important he is. That’s why Locke was brought back to life, as well as Christian Shepherd. But although you, (and you, Andrew:P), make a good point, I still don’t agree. I really think it’s tying stuff up in knots, making them more complicated than they need to be and demanding more time to explain it than they literally have i.e. a season and a quarter roughly. I will be content if they can find a way to pull it off, but from where I’m sitting it’s going down the road of things that happened weren’t changed but THAT’S WHAT HAPPENED – whatever happened, happened (is that getting annoying yet?:P…).

Let’s take the thing about Locke telling Richard in 1954 that he was born in a couple of years and he’d to come visit him: Now whether the reason Locke did that was just an idea he came up with or whether he remembers him visiting him is up for debate (personally I think it’s the former), but with what you’re saying, how do you explain Richard going to visit him? I’ll tell you why, because Locke told him to – since Locke walked into his camp, and knew all this stuff it seemed impossible for someone to know, that’s why he and the other Hostiles (if that’s what we’ve to call them just now…) kept an eye on him, with Richard visiting him again when he was a boy; when he asked him to choose an item – compass, knife, comic etc – and because he choose the wrong thing, he said he wasn’t ready yet; he was trying to see if he would be able to bring him there when he was younger, but he couldn’t because we already know that what happened was he didn’t go there until he crashed on the Island – whatever happened, happened.

@Andrew,

That DOES sound like a “Ben thing” to say – but I pose the rather obvious question of why would Ben put a hit out on himself? What purpose, going along with your theory that that’s actually possible, does that serve?

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I was just listening to the latest Lost podcast on ABC’s website, and exec producers/writer Carlton Cuse and Damon Linderlof were talking about the whole thing of whether or not Young Ben will actually be dead/if it will have any effect of Future Ben. They mentioned something that makes me stick even MORE with my thoughts that “whatever happened, happened” and that Young Ben will not be dead. They said that Sayid is really the first one to challenge the “rules” that you can’t change the past simply by shooting Young Ben when he knows he’s there in the future (which is not a spoiler, they’re simply pointing out something we all know). And they made a point of saying if YOU had the chance to go back and, say, kill a 12 year old Hitler, knowing FOR SURE that he would end up doing what he did starting WWII, would you not take that chance?. But they brought up the question what if you trying to kill young Hitler actually was part of the reason he turned out as he did – as I keep saying over and over, “whatever happened, happened”. So the reason Ben is the way he is with Sayid (getting him to “do his dirty work”, as they say, etc) is because of the fact he shot him when he was younger, i.e. kind of “getting him back”, if you want to say. In essence, Sayid is part of the reason Ben ends up the way he is. Sayid didn’t change anything, because THAT’S WHAT HAPPENED.

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@ right, I’m the pretentious one, Rusty, yet you are playing grammar police. “You can’t have a run on sentence, that’s against the rules!”

I criticized your run on sentences for being confusing not for being grammatically incorrect. I’m not a cop trying to arrest you for your crimes against grammar; I’m a life guard trying to save you from drowning in your own verbosity.

I’m not at all clear on how Michael’s failed suicide attempt violates causality. Did Locke successfully committing suicide because Richard told him too violate causality? IE I’m killing myself because in the future I’m dead.

I’m also not clear on if your theory does or does not call for Ben to just get up after being shot. Because it seems like you started at not and talked yourself to the other end.

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@rot,

But just think about it – you brought up the whole thing of the Island intervening so that Michael couldn’t kill himself, no matter many times and how many different ways he tried. Yes, the Island intervened, but the reason it did was because Michael dying at that point is not what happened (what was SUPPOSED to happen) thus it COULDN’T happen. Michael wasn’t supposed to die until he did that thing with freezing the C4 – and when he was done, cue Christian – “You can go now, Michael.” It’s the same thing as Desmond trying to save Charlie – no matter how many times he tried to do it, he would fail because Charlie HAD TO DIE because THAT’S WHAT HAPPENS (HAPPENED). It’s fate course correcting, as Ms. Hawkings said. Remember she said to Desmond that he was supposed to go to the Island, there was no avoiding it, even when he had the chance of going back into his memories and trying to change it (and before you say, the reason he could because he is “uniquely, and miraculously special”), whatever he did still led him to crashing on the Island.

You said the words exactly “there is a plan”, a set of things, however endless they may be, that HAVE TO HAPPEN… that DO HAPPEN. As I said there will be SOME things that can change, i.e. the upcoming episode title “The Variable”, but not things which are impossible in the overall picture; Young Ben can’t be killed because he’s there in the future. I really don’t get this “alternative reality” or “alterantive future” or whatever, it doesn’t make sense, at least not at the moment. As I said before, I will be content whichever way they go because they always seem to make their wacky ideas work very well (remember how ludicrous the Island moving idea when we first were introduced to it at the end of last season? Now we don’t even question it…). But with how the shows been set up, the journey of the show for 5 years now, points entirely to the ever repeated (by me:P) idea that “whatever happened, happened.”

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Good point – he would maybe want to go back and fix some things that he wished he could’ve changed. But, as you say, that’s if your guys’ theory holds true. HOWEVER, staying on the “two bodies of the same person cannot exist in the same time thing”, how do you explain any of Sawyer, Jack, Kate, Juliette, whoever, going back in time? They would be in the same time as the kid versions of themselves, would they not?. Granted, not in the same PLACE, but still in the same time, undoubtedly – taking Sawyer, for example, he is rouughly supposed to be 35 or so, that would make him in 1977 at the same as his younger 3 year old self would be back in Alabama.

from wiki: One of the most well publicized aspects of Beat writing is the continual challenge to the limits of free expression;

Clearly, Rusty, you don’t even understand what Beat writing is, otherwise you wouldn’t be calling me out for my credentials. Beat aspires to do away with the conservative notions of what writing should be and it reduces to the writing of the average person… actually they would have loved the blog development, this democratisation of language, foregoing spelling, grammar, punctuation, to get at the pulse of the thought. I write the way I think, and if it doesn’t slow down for you, so be it.

I will get back to these comments later, but I will stress I am not anywhere near certain the show will go the nonlinear route, in fact I have heard whispers that Ben could live, I just think they SHOULD go that way.

as to why would Ben want to be where the action is, well duh. He’s Ben! That and also he loves Juliet and Juliet is in the seventies.

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they have referenced Philip K Dick many times on the show, including Locke handing Ben ‘VALIS’ to read, and let me tell you VALIS is a bazillion times more complicated than anything I have roughed out as a possibility, in that story there are two time periods existing in tandem with each other, so events happening now are also happening in the past. wrap your head around that.

The one hesitation I have to the theory of nonlinear reality coming into play is that the creators have said that the mythology is not the main part of the show, its the crust to the pie filling which is character arcs, and so maybe they wouldn’t go all in sci-fi if that is the case… but since they jumped into time travel maybe they are willing to go the whole nine yards.

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@ Beat aspires to do away with the conservative notions of what writing should be and it reduces to the writing of the average person

I swear to god, that exact same sentence appeared in Paglia’s article about Sarah Palin.
Hey Alan Ginsberg, when yer done challenging the fascism of grammar and bourgeoisie causality do you think you could find time (inbetween harrumphs and lectures on what commoners like to read in their spare time of course.) to address my two questions above.

re:

I’m not at all clear on how Michael’s failed suicide attempt violates causality. Did Locke successfully committing suicide because Richard told him too violate causality? IE I’m killing myself because in the future I’m dead.

I’m also not clear on if your theory does or does not call for Ben to just get up after being shot. Because it seems like you started at not and talked yourself to the other end.

Seriously, does Locke violate causality by killing himself? Is that what your talking about? If so I think I get your point and have a lot more to say about it. If not I’m afraid I’m lost, and all I’ve got is lots more sarcastic jokes about beat literature.

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When did Locke commit suicide? he was murdered.

causality, cause and effect, if I drive a car full blast without a seat belt, the expected effect is death, but Michael lives. The whole Michael story was that no matter what he tried within the normal laws of causality he couldn’t die because some PLAN overrode these laws, so there is something greater than causality at work in this story.

young ben, old ben, causality, cause and effect. One assumes that young Ben cannot die because the effect would be in linear reality that Old Ben would cease to exist. My point: this slavish faith in causality has already proven to be a fallacy (and I insist that is the meaning underlying Ben’s ‘he changed the rules’ statement in THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME). It is not a sound argument to say there must be a paradox with young and old Ben, because clearly in the mythology of the Island rules are being broken, miraculous interventions are taking place to change how events occur. The Lost reality is not mechanistic, it doesn’t work like a clock according to scientific foreseeable physical laws… something else is happening.

come to think of it, Alex’s death, the realization for Ben that transgressions to causality can happen, may have been the lynchpin in his decision to off his younger self, because he realized that there was no paradox there. I think Ben had a limited understanding of the rules of the game and with her death he now is trying something radical to get back to the island in the time period that important events are taking place.

as for how did he know it would be the seventies, that can be explained, how has Ben known most anything in this story, maybe Hawkings knew more than she claimed, and let Ben know this. When Ben turned the donkey wheel he told Locke he could never come back, and sometime in the interim he may have figured out a risky way to get back. Ben would know Sayid would be going to the seventies because for Sayid there would be no conflict, no duplicate of himself in the same time period (remember Chang warning of the danger of having the rabbits in the same place near the end of season 4).

They haven’t yet explained how time travel effects the memories of those revised by the intrusion… Rousseau seems no different from encountering Jin, oh wait Richard does remember encountering Locke… and Desmond does have a dream of Faraday by his encounter in the past (but he is apparently special), so perhaps normal people are not changed retroactively. Besides Desmond and Richard who are ‘special’ is there a case where a revision of the past has shown to directly alter the events of the future or even trigger new memories in the future?

This has been withheld from us, and I think there is a good reason for it, but I have no idea what it is.

as for what happens to Ben, my belief is young Ben is dead, there is no him getting back up, thats it for that actor. But it has no causal effect on Old Ben, and this will be explained this season as a big reveal.

I don’t quite understand how Locke dying has anything to do with causation, he died in the present and was resurrected in whenever (no matter what time period), it is a miracle, an overriding of all physical laws. Causally should that happen? no. So I say again, why is that ok in your Whatever happened, happened theory of course correction, but not a similar transgression of physical laws in Young Ben dying and Old Ben living?

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@ Besides Desmond and Richard who are ’special’ is there a case where a revision of the past has shown to directly alter the events of the future or even trigger new memories in the future?

This has been withheld from us, and I think there is a good reason for it, but I have no idea what it is.

Ross and I addressed this up thread and it seems like I convinced him. I think everything we’ve seen is perfectly compatible with people in 2004 remembering their encounters with the time travelers. Richard, Ben, Widmore, The air field, the exception is Rousseau / Jin and their interaction is so minimal that I can just turn a blind eye, it’s an innocent ret conn.

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CORRECTION: I meant to say “linearity is a prerequisite for causation, only if things are linear and fixed can you have causal law.”

Rusty: “Michael’s incident happened in “present time” as well. Does non causation only effect time travelers? Isn’t the implication of what you’re saying that there is no “present” only different points in time? Aren’t we “time travelers” traveling forward in time?”

I can’t even begin to unpack what you are saying here (and I am the one unclear?). What I said is there are two realities that co-exist 1) reality fixed in amber as ‘God’s Plan’ which has no obligation of being linear (would you say a rock is linear? no it just exists). So think of God’s reality as an object without time 2) man than perceives the object, or ‘Gods Plan’, or Reality, through which consciousness processes information AS IF it was linear. Linear reality is the filtered glasses we as sentient beings perceive the world. With linear reality comes the mandates of causal law.

The Lost universe poses a Variant in our everyday experience of reality, the causal laws are being disrupted because ‘The island has plans’. Its fairly clear characters are being moved around in a way of course correction (highly coincidental events) so that some higher plan is played out.
The island could be thought of as the knot in reality, not to say it is an anomaly, like God didn’t expect it, but WE didn’t expect it.

“Team Sawyer however is ruled by WH,H; as exposited by Faraday; not course correction. Nothing they do is course corrected. They are acting in lock step with the course of events. Everything they do is making the present come true, whether they like it or not.”

WH,H is not incongruous with course correction, it can mean whatever happened will happen in the broadstrokes, or it could mean every detail is fixed (which I see as knotted reality).

My point before about has there been any changes retroactively, you said something before about the runway being evidence I think… and I need to clarify what I meant:

the time travellers can remember and change according to what they have learned on their time excursions, but I am asking has there been any evidence of a native of the time period being influenced by the time traveller so that in a future time period we see they have changed knowingly? my examples were only Desmond and Richard but they are clearly special cases.

What I am saying is, if they do not change, if for example Young Ben meeting the time travellers is not something Old Ben recalls, then it furthers my belief that there is no paradox in young ben’s death. WH,H could mean nothing is retained, that you are always in the present, even when the scenery is of the past… Sawyer as LaFleur is still Sawyer of 2005 and the world they inhabit has no causal obligation to the events of 2005 (although that is unlikely considering they rule out alternate realities).

I don’t know.

I just say there is room for nonlinear reality in the show, but it needs an incredible narrative trick to do it.

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I suggest that in LOST there is a nonlinear causality. That if x causes y, it is just as true that y causes x.

If Locke is dead in 2007 it is because he hung himself in 2006. And also it’s just as true to say Locke hangs himself in 2006 because he is dead in 2007 (I know he doesn’t hang himself. I’m just sayin’.). I don’t think this principal has much consequence upon the story. But it’s how I percieve of time working on the show. And you’ll notice it’s not a linear relationship.

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Oh come on Rusty, you are seriously not saying it was merely a gun jam in Michael’s case, that causation as pertaining to physical laws is not interrupted there?

The gun jamed four times, reloaded with Keemy trying to kill him, he also drove full on to a wall without a seat belt and lived, and just narratively, we know the whole point of Michael not being able to die is because the island isn’t done with him… well causation doesn’t work that way, either the world is mechanistic like a clock, which each physical action causing a reaction and you can predicte phenomena, or you have divine intervention changing physical law so that events that shouldn’t happen by strict causation, happen.

as for whether I believe the past does not dictate the future… I don’t know, eastern philosophy would say there is no time, time is an illusion, you are only now… so maybe they will go that way.

your interpretation of nonlinear reality is intriguing, backwards and forwards, we shall see if that plays out.

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@Ross,

so I say again, then why do you object to nonlinear reality… why can’t nonlinear reality be a part of whatever happened, happened?

I say there is a knot in the space time continuum that has always been there, always will be there, and our characters are just playing out that inevitability, but there are no paradoxes in this case.

I say all this but I have very good evidence that something contrary is going to happen in this week’s episode.

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@ Oh come on Rusty, you are seriously not saying it was merely a gun jam in Michael’s case, that causation as pertaining to physical laws is not interrupted there?

No, I agree it’s some island Wu. But it’s so open ended that I don’t see how it can offer evidence or proof of any particular theory (unless your theory is “the island is weird”).
I don’t see how it proves that the island disrupts cause and effect. Whether or not it keeps him alive via magic or advanced science; cause-and-effect (which, again, in the sense we’re speaking of them is a logical relationship not necessarily a physical one) remain intact.

And by the way, I’m legitimately curious. Do you personally believe that cause-and-effect is an illusion?

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do I believe cause and effect is an illusion, thats a tricky question. at this point no, only because I have not delved too deeply into meditation, but from what I have read about it I do believe tentatively that our temporal minds are habitually locked in this cause and effect existence, and that one could, in theory, break free of it. Let’s say I am very much not a materialist. I think we are in the habit of rationalizing EVERYTHING because of the Western culture we grew up in. whatever phenomena we experience, however it bubbles up from our subconscious, the second we need to name it or articulate how it works, it becomes a self-perpetuating analysis. all human experience becomes clinical symptoms, and it is just all too convenient that this leaves little to no room for anything remotely spiritual.

as for last night’s episode, I have only seen the last half, so I still am not clear what happened, but how is Andrew coming up with the notion that this episode proves there is no cause and effect? so it said it is nonlinear reality?

from what I saw I thought it was pulling back, saving young Ben’s life (which I really find lame) and so there is no paradox.

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I plan to watch it tonight. Yeah I missed that conversation. and I didn’t get why the episode was titled ‘whatever happened, happened’, I’m guessing that came up in the first half too?

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@ What happens on the show occurs in the same order as we at home are watching it.

Wait… I’m not sure I understand. You dont mean that Locke came to the island, and then was in wheel chair for four years and then was pushed out a window by his father (which was the order we watched it in)?

@ I can go back in time and kill all my ancestors; but because from my perspective I was already born, I won’t suddenly disappear

I’m pretty sure that’s wrong.

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wait a second, nothing has been proven either way yet… they have just prolonged the prognosis of what happens to Ben, and left it open with the remark “well why didn’t Ben recognize Sayid when they first encountered one another”… and Miles had no response.

and for the record my issue is with ending an episode shooting Ben in the chest and confronting the paradox directly only to balk on it, and potentially use it as a gimmick, just another one of those serial cliffhangers (show the car veering off the cliff, and then next episode its safe). There should be a code among writers and their audience, that there are certain tricks they will not pull and I think balking on the paradox is lame, it should have been the nexus point for a whole new way of looking at the show, and instead its potentially nothing, a means of getting Ben to be an Other, which we already knew he would be.

my idea doesn’t have a deus ex machina, Ben isn’t resurrected, you use the point of the shooting to demonstrate that the past can be rewritten without disrupting the present (in certain circumstances). that is fascinating, that would blow people’s minds and be daring, and unique…

to say whatever happened, happened, and succumb to basic linear causation, that doesn’t compare… Lost has a trend of pushing the envelope, so yeah, I was hoping they would push it further.

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By the way Andrew. I don’t think there was anything lazy about the dialogue between Hurley and Miles. It wasn’t exposition, it shows that the characters have the same questions about what’s going.
At this point I’d even take Faraday’s opinions with a grain of salt. He has a theory about what’s going on but no ones actually put this to the test until Sayid shot Linus.
And while Faraday might intellectually side with WH,H. Emotionally he’s routing for Free will. Remember him, convincing himself not to warn young Charlotte? Thereby, potentially saving her life (LeFleur).

And that reminds me; as far as characters remembering meeting time travelers. Add Charlotte to the list. I don’t even consider it an open question anymore.

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Actually Ross, it was Rot who said “that is why Ben was surprised by Alex’s death, that the rules he understood changed.”
Personally I’m not convinced he wasn’t talking about mafia style rules (no families) rather than time travel rules. Although, I believe that episode, The Shape of Things to Come, was the first instance of physical time travel on the show. So I won’t rule it out.

I wouldn’t at all be surprised if The Variable were Desmond. As I mentioned before I think what’s special about Desmond is that unlike the rest who are traveling through time Physically, Desmond travels in consiousness only. And therefore, consiousness being non-localized, he can exist at several points in time at once. And thus is outside the cycle of cause and effect. He can change things, even if course correction nudges them back, he can alter events.

And I think this gift was bestowed upon him by some “force” that wanted him to alter the timeline by holding off Charlie’s death long enough… so that he could take down the Looking Glass… so that the freighter could make contact… so that the O6 would be rescued… so that they wouldn’t be on island in 1977 in the DI where they were supposed to be.
And I think another competing “force” lured them back so that they would be where they were supposed to be. That’s why their return was so important.

The conflict between these two forces is the war Charles Widmore has been talking about. Two conflicting destinies. Like dualistic theism only with fates instead of god’s. One represented by Ben, the other represented by Charles.

Furthermore, I think the finale of this season is going to be Desmond on the island, during the Incident using his gift to pick which one of two outcomes will happen. After which he’ll die. No more Desmond next season.

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My understanding regarding the last episode wasn’t whether Ben would die or not (we obviously knew he wouldn’t), it was more about would the choices they make push Ben to become the person we know in the future.

If Sayid hadn’t shot Ben or if Jack had helped or if Kate hadn’t taken Ben to the Others, then Ben would have remained innocent and things might have been different. I thought that was more interesting than whether Ben was going to die. Their presence created the Ben we know.

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I forgot about Charlotte, thats a good point. and I forgot that Richard said Ben would lose his memory, that explains that as well. But then doesn’t it seem strange Ben would have built up hostility for his dad and kill him the way he was supposed to, with this time change in effect? Unless I guess he came back immediately as a young kid and was still abused by his dad.

and Rusty, we will agree to disagree on whether balking on the paradox was a good or bad thing.

say what you will, they have been concealing information leading up to next week’s episode (dead is dead) and I think the issue of whether linear causation is the final answer of how things work is yet to be seen. and I know I can’t even make you conceive of how nonlinearity works Ross, you keep just repeating as if impervious the notion that he can’t die if he is in the future. There is a wealth of writing on the subject and it does make sense as a plausible explanation for reality, and Hume the philosopher was all about how suspect causation is. and I still hold that Alex’s death was a miraculous break with how mechanistic causation is supposed to work, hence the only time truly Ben has been freaked out.

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@ if the assumption is that Ben would never die, and you are going to stick with that as impervious then the Thud ending of that episode was lame

It’s not Ben’s life that’s on the line, it’s free will itself! That’s what’s cool about it! That’s what we keep trying to explain to you while you spin on and on and on about causality and proxies and David Hume! A. Christian Dumass gets it (just kidding, dude. no offense.) why can’t you!!
The show is not gonna discard cause and effect! Stop talking about it! It’s not “balking”, they told us in advance that he wouldn’t die! Why won’t you listen to them!?!

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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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For crying out loud, the name of the fucking episode is “What happened, Happened” and your sitting there going “I was expecting Ben to die. And could someone explain the title to me?”

The writers are trying to throw you a life preserver and yer yelling “Stop throwing things at me and save me from drowning!”

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ugh, Rusty, free will is connected to causation, if you are going to prove one way or the other anything about free will with the shooting of Ben you are also going to be proving one way or the other something about causal law… its two sides of the same coin.

so the show told you ahead of time (cause and effect is normal, whatever happens happens) and you are telling me that shooting Ben to show that obvious fact is in anyway cool or mind-blowing?

let me describe this to you

character 1: everything is predetermined

character 2: yes it is

shoot character 3 which will prove or disprove theory

thud

character 3 is alive and well and no disruption of theory, yup everything is predetermined, yehaw.

do you see the problem with this? there is no contrary view? it was never a dispute (apparently in everyone’s head that it wouldn’t be that way), the thud was pointless because we have already been shown by Hawkings the how WH,H theory (he showed Desmond a person getting hit by a bus), this is not a reveal of anything, it establishes status quo… its an empty event on the issue of free will…

how about the third time it is shown that everything is predetermined, will you find it just as awesome?

they framed the event as important and at least in the immediate future, it appears it wasn’t important. all it does is set up Ben going to the Others, which was already going to happen. I like how you say, Rusty it is about free will, about whether it exists, and yet you ridicule me because I leave open the option that it could exist… you are not seeing how empty this event is considering its outcome. you feign a double choice to feign excitement but you keep telling me there could never be a”discard of cause and effect!”.

talk about doublethink.

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Just to chime in, yes there is no disruption of the theory. The reason the thing about Sayid shooting Young Ben was in there is to challenge the fact that it happened, to challenge “fate” if you will. Yes they framed it as important because it was an important moment where this idea was challenged. The reason Ben became an Other in the way he did was BECAUSE SAYID SHOT HIM. There is no alternate to that, Ben wouldn’t have become an Other (at least not in the same way i.e. Richard taking him to the temple like that) if Sayid hadn’t have went back in time and shot him as a kid. Let’s just go along with the idea that no one travelled back in time – then in that case Ben would have never been shot by Sayid, and he wouldn’t have become an Other in the way he did. But the point is, how it works, is that THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE. That’s how it happened.

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as for it being a plot device to get Ben to become an Other, I accept that, but that is so ‘who cares’ considering WE KNEW it was going to happen, no matter if Sawyer carries him to Richard or Richard takes him in the middle of the night. and seeing as Ben is not going to remember the events, I don’t see how even that the Losties changed things really plays out in Ben’s psyche.

Just admit the show balked, and lets get on with our lives

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@”so ‘who cares’ considering WE KNEW it was going to happen, no matter if Sawyer carries him to Richard or Richard takes him in the middle of the night.”

But that’s just IT! Argh! THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE TO SAWYER AND KATE TAKING YOUNG BEN TO RICHARD – THAT’S WHAT HAPPENED. There is no “Sawyer could have taken him in the middle of the night”, because that didn’t happen. Everything happened because it happened. Just for the sake of discussion let’s say that there is no time travel involved – how would we know what was supposed to happen? We wouldn’t, and therefore couldn’t do anything about it. Miles, Hurley, Jack, Kate etc can’t change anything because to them it is the present. No matter what we did it wouldn’t change anything. Ben was taken in by the others because Sayid shot him and Sawyer and Kate took him to Richard.

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@Ross

“But that’s just IT! Argh! THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE TO SAWYER AND KATE TAKING YOUNG BEN TO RICHARD – THAT’S WHAT HAPPENED.”

I’m not disputing that, you are making an argument where there is none. I am saying narratively, they could have written it one way or the other and either one could have been the WH,H always written way, and that from our perspective it isn’t a surprise that Ben became an Other, so if the impact of the thud was supposed to be that, its not terribly exciting.

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I didn’t expect it because I expected more from the writers than resorting to straw man cliffhangers.

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Ross, you are not good with reading hypotheticals…

Prior to the reveal of what happens to Ben, we already knew Ben would be an Other, I am saying, without knowing the details of how, that is not a big reveal, to say he became an other this way rather than another way the writers COULD have chose to write it (or are the writers also bound by WH,H?). Will you at least accept the free will of the writers in choosing what are the rules of their story?

my whole nonlinear theory is not something I am pushing now, there is no contradiction with me talking about events in this latest episode because I accept the WH,H as posing no paradox. IF that is the way the show goes, so be it. I fault them on a narrative choice, and a lost opportunity for something a bit more ambitious, but who knows, the show isn’t over yet.

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wow brilliant Rusty, brilliant.

I can see there is no real discussing the point with you further, because rather than confront anything I said directly you just want to go Henrik on the issue.

I guess in your universe there was a viable choice in the Ben thud (free will or determined) but at the same time it is RIDICULOUS to even suggest the possibility that Free will is an option because WH,H, and rather than actually see how free will could exist (nonlinear being the only non-paradoxical explanation) you call out that whole argument as bullshit.

again wonderful doublethink you got there Rusty.

if free will was a viable explanation for the shooting of Ben, I would love to hear your interpretation of how it could happen, because clearly it isn’t a straw man position.

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@ genuine Free Will exists only if the world is not mechanistically bound by causal physical law

That’s just something theists say, while plotting against naturalism at their ID meetings because they can’t stand how awesome atheists are.

Seriously, there are different classes of “free will” certain kinds are more friendly to naturalism. And even if certain ideas are more popular among the academics there’s no consensus. I don’t agree that free will demands supernatural hookum.

But the debate’s not that technical anyways. All I mean by “Free will” in the context of LOST is that characters can act under their own volition as opposed to their actions already having been predetermined. Honestly, this thread is like a text book example of over thinking. If only I were such a text book, then it would be my lucky day.

There’s no reason to go down this rabit hole. It’s so simple and but you want it to be so complicated.

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@ I can see there is no real discussing the point with you further,

I’m really just in it for the lulz dude. I don’t even watch LOST.

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@mike,

Ah, but it ISN’T the same with regards to Bauer and Ben: The reason we know they won’t kill Bauer mid-season is because they’re not going to kill the character the show is about, i.e. what about the rest of the season? But the difference with Ben in Lost is a) Ben isn’t the main and only character and b)We know for A FACT that he is alive in the future. We aren’t able to see that Beaur is alive in the future, and so within the show itself, there’s a possibility he could die.

But the very fact that they had it is challenging it. You’re forgetting that not every viewer picks apart everything like we do. Have they just to forget about those more average viewers? If they’re going to have something like that in the show, they’ve just to skip it because some of us might be able to guess ahead?

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I’m sorry, mike, I’m just trying to make a/my point. I keep bringing that up because it’s the centre of the debate.

I never said there was no suspense. When did I say that? Yes, I said *we* knew that Young Ben couldn’t have died but it didn’t stop it being dramatic when it was playing out on-screen. Aren’t you forgetting that Lost is not just about all of this stuff we’ve been talking about (the reason we have been is because it’s worth discussing) – it started as a show both with mystery AND drama. I know you’re going to come back with the fact you didn’t feel dramatically engaged to what was going on since you knew he wouldn’t die (going along with that theory), but I, and I’m sure a lot of others, DID find it dramatically engaging. It seems you’re always thinking of the show outwith itself rather than enjoying it WITHin itself. Or am I mistaken?

I’m not just saying stuff for the sake of it, in an attempt to rile you up and carry on discussion “just because”. I’m just trying to prove my point, my opinions, my theories.

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well it would work the same the show is working now, because subjectively, we all assume free will and perceive linear time. and my idea was that time is not strictly linear, but that you could have a knot in it, which the island causes or represents. time is linear until you use the variable of the island, than things are different. its still whatever happened, happened, but what happened was not STRICTLY linear. if you want to be religious about this, its saying God is not limited by linear causation, he create time, so if there is a knot in time where a Young Ben can die and an Old Ben can live its not a paradox, it is what always had to happen as part of God’s plan (or the Island’s plan for you atheists).

I think it is fairly easy to see, and far more radical a decision to make that goes into this whole man of science, man of faith… predetermination, with fixed laws of causation and paradoxes being averted, that suggests man of science logic. I can’t see them not succumbing to the man of faith position eventually, in which case miracles exist, miracles as lapses in logic, lapses in mechanistic causation… and the killing of Ben could have been the big introduction to it.

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so if Buddha and Christ can operate outside of time, is it so crazy in a show that cannot shut up about these figures that it too breaks with science?

… just caught up on Rot’s posts…

@ alright, I got to just come to the conclusion you really are not remotely philosophical, Rusty, and accept that because how you can say this statement and somehow say there are ’shades’ of this not competing with predetermination… wow.

oh my god, fuck you! You’re belittling me for not using a suitably sophisticated definiton of “free will” in reference to Lost?!?! Excuse me for not renewing my subscription to the Journal of Pretentious Bullshit Quarterly! Maybe my use of the term is rooted in the tradition of beat poetry! Ever think of that? did you?

And I can’t find where I even used the term “shades”? Seriously, point it out to me. And I said free will could be compatible with naturalism, not predetermination. Completely different. You’re telling me I’m wrong, you didn’t read what I wrote.

What did Christian ever do to you?! The poor guy left one post and it didn’t even mention you! Not even indirectly! Now he probably thinks we’re a bunch of dicks and he’s never gonna come back.

You need to get help!

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Christian said: “My understanding regarding the last episode wasn’t whether Ben would die or not (we obviously knew he wouldn’t), it was more about would the choices they make push Ben to become the person we know in the future.”

I didn’t mean to say Christian slandered me an idiot, I mean indirectly he was saying my argument was wrong “Christian, Rusty, and Ross have all told me I am an idiot FOR thinking he could have died” the word FOR in that sentence is the condition by which I am wrong-headed, misguided, or idiot. Christian says it is OBVIOUS… connect the dots… and the point is not personal insult in my post (I know there was no personal insult in his remark) the point is that I was so OBVIOUSLY wrong…

as for Rusty and ‘shades’ : “Seriously, there are different classes of “free will” certain kinds are more friendly to naturalism. And even if certain ideas are more popular among the academics there’s no consensus. I don’t agree that free will demands supernatural hookum.”

are you going to challenge me on whether ‘shades’ and ‘classes’ are synonyms?

follow me here Rusty, you said that sentence, saying there are different classes of free will and so no consensus, and then went on to say what’s my big issue with creating a false dichotomy upon the shooting of Ben, free will (you brought it up the term originally) and predetermination because

and I quote:

“But the debate’s not that technical anyways. All I mean by “Free will” in the context of LOST is that characters can act under their own volition as opposed to their actions already having been predetermined.”

key word in that is ‘OPPOSED’

classes of free will, but you are saying here, they are OPPOSED, and that is exactly what I said, so your ARGUMENT philosophically or otherwise makes no sense. I think what you would like it to say is yeah things are being made TOO complicated, and academics think too much, and there is no consensus on free will (the term you brought up originally I state again) so why, you ask, this emphasis on a dichotomy, EITHER Free Will OR PREDERMINATION?…

except, you idiot, you just agreed with me while disagreeing with me.

your paragraph about classes of free will strained to be philosophical but it went nowhere because you contradicted, or at the very least ignored it altogether to agree with me (while posing as if disagreeing with me).

and now you say ” I said free will could be compatible with naturalism, not predetermination.”

naturalism presupposes causal laws, physical causal laws, natural physical causal laws, the only difference between that and predetermination is that predetermination also leaves open the possibility of divine intervention, otherwise that is the same idea.

Now whether the Lost universe is naturalistic, or predetermined, you want to explain to me how it could be compatible with free will (objective not subjective) in the Ben scenario?

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I look forward to being called out as an academic and thinking this out too much, and so on… as a subterfuge from answering the question directly.

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In the same comment post everything else was taken from, Rusty said:

“@ genuine Free Will exists only if the world is not mechanistically bound by causal physical law

That’s just something theists say, while plotting against naturalism at their ID meetings because they can’t stand how awesome atheists are.”

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Just so you know, rot, *I* like your academically expressed opinions, man:-)

So in the post you quote I’m saying that I dont agree that free will demands magic supernatural hoohaa. I’m saying I think free will is reconcilable with naturalism.

It might be objective that free will is incompatible with predetermination. But it’s not objective that predetermination = naturalism.

That’s fine that you don’t agree with me about naturalism. I understand that I’m in the minority. I don’t even claim to have an especially firm grasp on the subject. But I’m not beholden to the conclussions that you’ve reached. Even if every scholar on earth agrees with you and I’m alone. Even if I’m illiterate and ignorant. Even if you’re right and I’m wrong. It’s still a debatable subject and I’m entitled to my opinion. And so are the creators of LOST.

And I sincerely doubt that every single philosopher agrees with your conclussion that naturalism demands pretermination. I’m sure I’ve heard / read stuff from D. Dennet and co. and interviews on Infidel Guy with people who disagree with you.

Sorry, predetermination and naturalism arent’ synonyms. Your personal viewpoint is not a fact.

I can’t even get you to use periods! And you’re demanding a satisfactorly academic definition of Free Will? Fuck if I know!

I wasn’t even attempting to use the terms in the sense of a philosopher but rather in an everyday / conversational sense. Free Will meaning you can make up your own mind; Predetermination meaning that the decision has already been made.
I’m not against thinking about philosophy. I don’t think it’s a waste of time to read and write about this, and gain a deeper appreciation for it. But I don’t think a TV show is this technical.

And I also don’t think, and wasn’t suggesting, that the television show LOST necessarily shares my own materialistic rationalism. When I said that stuff about superstitious theist and ID meetings I was editorializing. Not describing LOST. As far as LOST goes I dont’ believe in naturalism I guess.

If you really think that not agreeing that naturalism precludes free will and inescapably results in predetermination is the height of idiocy. Then I guess you shouldn’t continue this conversation. After all, you know what they say about arguing with an idiot in public…

This is why I call you the Martin Luther of rowthree. You also remind me of John Lithgow from Footloose.

@ actually I like to think of myself as Christ

So did Martin Luther. And John Lithgow (directors cut).

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@”there is no sense that free will is involved and things are predetermined, and time is linear, and everything is neat and tidy.”

…and why shouldn’t it be? So they have to make it chaotic, confusing, and all that jazz, just for the sake making it seem edgy and “untidy”?

If it happens to end up “neat and tidy,” then they shouldn’t need to change that just so it isn’t.

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Silly?! This is debate at its best, my friend:-)

I agree – the Kate episodes are usually the weakest I’ll admit (although I DO NOT get the hate for her), but this last one was probably the best Kate one of the entire show so far. And this season in general is MIND BLOWINGLY GOOD, I don’t care what anyone sais. Season 4 is probably still my favourite, but that may change once we see this one in its entirety.

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@ Ross
How could the Island have an older Ben if the younger didn’t exist in the first place? I’m not denying the fact that this mysterious Island may have a plan of some sorts, but that theory within itself negates the fact that Young Ben could die – there somply wouldn’t BE an older Ben for the two to be separate in the first place, know what I mean?

My theory is dead now (because Ben lived), but the answer to this question could have been easy. Because Sayid hasn’t gone back and killed him yet. Remember, everything we’re watching is happening in a linear way. Going back to 1977 didn’t actually happen in 1977. It’s happening NOW. It’s hard to explain and I know it’s a different idea than any other time travel show/movie has ever done, but if I was a film maker, I would take this idea and run with it. The grandfather paradox, in this theory is simple. I CAN go back and kill all my ancestors and nothing will happen to me… because I haven’t done it yet. If I build a time machine when I’m 50 years old (20 years from now) and travel back to 1976 and eat ten pounds of pasta, I’m not going to be any fatter today as I type this because that version of 1976 is still my future, it’s not my past; it hasn’t happened yet and won’t happen until I’m 50. Which is why I won’t win the lottery tomorrow, because I haven’t gone back in time yet to give myself the winning numbers. Changing the true past (I mean assuming time travel is possible at all) is impossible because if it were, I would be a rich and powerful man now. But I’m not, because anything I do in the future to try and change my current reality hasn’t happened yet.

/ non-sensical brainstorming.

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@ Andrew’s time traveling theory:

Ross’s head just exploded

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@ I won’t say the title of the episode because apparently that is even considered a spoiler by some

I complained about your episode description not the title. It may sound anal but if it’s about an unaired episode it counts as a spoiler.
I don’t watch “next time on lost” anymore. The writers have no control over it’s content and have frequently complained about them ruining episodes. The show plays much better without them.

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I used to not care. But I’ve gradually realized that discovery adds a lot to an experience whether it’s a tv show / movie / book / whatever. The point of all that marketing stuff is to prime you for what to expect. It really interferes with the viewing experience.

Here’s a really subtle example. I kept reading about the naked sauna fight scene in Eastern Promises. Most critics saw the film in the festival circuit months before it got a commercial release and I guess it became a point of pride to be the first critic to proclaim to the world that the scene was genius. No need for a spoiler tag because it’s not “important to the plot” (what does that even mean?) everyone listen to me talk about how great it is! I’m not even talking about reviews, which I don’t read until after I see a film, they blathered it every chance they got. They’d mention it in reviews of other films.

But look at how the film sets it up. It primes us to expect a violent act to befall Naomi Watts and instead has the violent encounter happen to Viggo, at the end of the movie. The whole movie was sabotaged by the critics.

It’s annoying that we’re not allowed to be surprised in the movie theater anymore.

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@Andrew,

Okay here’s where we split in opinion about how the time travel with LOST works. I know you said your theory is dead, but for the sake of discussion (which is always fun) let me try and explain why I disagree with how you said it could have been explained:

The whole point of the “whatever happened, happened” thing is exactly that – whatever happened…happened. In essence yes they COULD plant a flag somewhere on the Island in 1977 and one of the Oceanic survivors WOULD be able to find it in 2004. Because whatever happened, happened. But the very fact that we KNOW (or at least didn’t see) them finding a flag after the Oceanic crash, we know for A FACT that one of the time travelling Losties didn’t plant a flag. You can’t change anything, whatever they do in 1977 – that has ALREADY happened, it doesn’t matter that they haven’t travelled back yet because in the overall picture it technically already has happened. So if Ben wasn’t going to have his memory erased to some capacity (as Richard said to Sawyer and Kate before he carried him into the temple) then he WOULD remember the Losties from the childhood, and getting shot by a man named Sayid.

Which means you CAN’T kill your ancestors, because you’re there in the future. And using the example of you being fatter in the future if you travelled back to the past and eat all that because YOU’RE THE ONE TRAVELLING BACK. As Miles said to Hurley, any of those who travelled back can die! That’s part of the point! Because they’re the one’s travelling back anything can happen to them, because it’s in the present. But at the same time since it’s not their past but Ben’s and the Dharma Initiative’s, things can’t be changed. That’s what always happened, no matter what they do. If we look at that in our own lives – no matter what we do, this debate on this thread for example, ALWAYS HAPPENED, no matter what. That may sound like what’s the point of doing anything if it’s all predetermined but the thing is WE DON’T HAVE THE ABILITY TO SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE, and therefore to us everything is just happening as if it’s random and can be changed, BUT IT CAN’T.

But as you say, Young Ben lived…

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@ I mean there are tons of movies (Frequency, Back to the Future, etc etc) that take this approach: go back in time and give yourself a winning lottery ticket numbers

That’s not what they’re doing.

And Abrams is not involved with the show creatively anymore.

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maybe more clearly is to say causal law no longer works in a linear way when you delve into time travel, or delve into time travel on the island because parallel timelines exist, and keeping with this conundrum, cause and effect operate in parallel.

this would keep with the more interesting notions of time travel brought up in the Constant, that the changes are not bodily, but mentally.

If we look closely at the Constant I think it could pose a lot of problems for your very literal interpretation of W H, H. For example, for Penny to have been ready for the phone call on Christmas eve she had to have made a series of decisions since the time travel information was passed to her, like not moving, not changing her phone number, all of these little butterfly effects that add up. Now if it was always the case that Desmond was going to communicate this information via time travel, well that there is a break in linear causal law… Desmond changed the past, he changed the trajectory of Penny’s life. Cause and effect are parallel, not linear, 2007 and 1990 (?) were causally linked.

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In fact the Constant is an example of the knotted reality I was talking about before.

its all fixed, but what is fixed is nonlinear, the transfer of information is nonlinear. Penny would never be waiting at that phone under those circumstances had time and the effects of time only been allowed to be linear.

Now it either is a double back and change of the past causing a different present and future, or it is a built-in double back and change, all predetermined, but that doesn’t change it being a knotted reality.

There is built into reality the effect of nonlinear information transmitting.

In otherwords, the knowledge of the present changes according to the interferences with the past. following this theory, if it is possible to kill young Ben (or maybe something like that in a future “incident”) then what may that mean for present day Ben, the second the parallel event happens? maybe Smokey exists to clean up those kinds of problems?

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btw, I am just throwing this stuff out there, seeing what sticks.

Now why did Charolette only remember Daniel when she was young at that moment? The memory seems not to exist for her until that moment, and than it popped into her mind. I don’t have an answer, but they were time traveling at that moment, the parallel timelines theory is in play (parallel timeslines co-existing means causation can also work parallel)

Faraday seemed surprised to see ‘Desmond is my Constant’ written in his journal in the Constant… again it seems like in the present the memory pops in, and then he frantically checked his journal to corroborate.

I don’t know, lots of tangets here,

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Now why did Charolette only remember Daniel when she was young at that moment?

I have an idea about that. Towards the end there she seemed to think she was somewhere else, probably unstuck in time Desmond style. Visiting old memories. She probably visited that incident when she was young.

Oddly, some of the “memories” she was visiting seemed to be from her future. She talks about marrying an American. I suppose that could’ve been her past but at the time I had assumed the American was Faraday.

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@ If we look closely at the Constant I think it could pose a lot of problems for your very literal interpretation of W H, H.

Hey Rot, I was reading some of your comments and I think; concerning Desmond and the Constant; that you’re not taking into account the fact that Desmond’s time traveling is of a very different kind than the rest of them. I wouldn’t necessarily apply any of their rules to him. I don’t even believe WH,H applies to Desmond. And that’s what Faraday was telling us when he described Desmond as “special”.

I addressed this issue up thread in a comment I’ll quote for you:

I wouldn’t at all be surprised if The Variable were Desmond. As I mentioned before I think what’s special about Desmond is that unlike the rest who are traveling through time Physically, Desmond travels in consiousness only. And therefore, consiousness being non-localized, he can exist at several points in time at once. And thus is outside the cycle of cause and effect. He can change things, even if course correction nudges them back, he can alter events.

And I think this gift was bestowed upon him by some “force” that wanted him to alter the timeline by holding off Charlie’s death long enough… so that he could take down the Looking Glass… so that the freighter could make contact… so that the O6 would be rescued… so that they wouldn’t be on island in 1977 in the DI during the Incident where they were supposed to be.
And I think another competing “force” lured them back so that they would be where they were supposed to be. That’s why their return was so important.

The conflict between these two forces is the war Charles Widmore has been talking about. Two conflicting destinies. Like dualistic theism only with fates instead of god’s. One represented by Ben, the other represented by Charles.

Furthermore, I think the finale of this season is going to be Desmond on the island, during the Incident using his gift to pick which one of two outcomes will happen. After which he’ll die. No more Desmond next season.

About the note in his journal that says “Desmond Hume is your constant”. My hope for the this season is that that become import, tells us something new about the nature of time travel, and is tied to Daniel’s established memory issues and this inexplicable crying in “Confirmed Dead”. It probably has something to do with exposing himself to “time travel radiation” at Oxford.

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sorry, not to imply that Desmond isn’t special, but that his uniqueness doesn’t negate the rules of time travel for anybody else. its a nice storytelling subterfuge to make a point of someone being special to get you off the scent that despite being special there may be aspects to their time travel experiences that are universal or more pervasive at least. His specialness appears to being unstuck in time, and I could see him being the variable for that reason, but for those people doing time travel bodily, the cause and effect may still be consciousness-based.<